Jule Kim:

It is not a badge of courage to suffer alone, especially when there's this stubborn refusal to ask or even to accept help from others. They don't want to be a burden to others, I get that, but to actually reject help, I look at that kind of person, I'm like, "That is a person who refuses to learn."

Chris Do:

My guest today is a person I first met on Clubhouse and she was one of the toughest role-plays I've ever had to do, and she's reminded me a couple of times since then in that I said, "I would never work with you." And here we are, we're fast friends, it's a couple of years later and I'm delighted to have her on the show, so for people who don't know who you are, Jule, please introduce yourself.

Jule Kim:

Thanks so much for having me Chris. And by the way, I don't remember it that way, you saying you would never work with me. That's not how I remember this.

Chris Do:

Oh. I think I made that part up then.

Jule Kim:

I like how you're rewriting the story here. Anyway. Hello everyone. My name is Jule Kim. I'm a life coach and an executive coach. Love to work with creatives and executives.

Chris Do:

And what is your story? Because you've taken many different career turns and take me back to the educational thing where you thought you were going to do X and you did this and you've had a lot of turns in your life, so I'd love to hear a little bit about those changes.

Jule Kim:

Oh, I thought we only had 60 minutes for this today. All right, I'll give-

Chris Do:

We'll do an extended episode just for you.

Jule Kim:

Yeah. Well, I did the typical thing, was straight A student in school, go off to college. I entered college as an English major and then in the first semester I do a hard left turn, I don't think this is for me. I go into math and I end up graduating with a degree in math. My parents didn't love this idea, and so from math, I went on to law school. I dropped out in the first year, or after the first year. Sorry, it's been a while. Spent a few years spinning my wheels. I was actually gaming full-time back then, and this is around 2004, so I spent about two years just gaming full-time competitively and eventually get my first contract job working at various companies. I've been an editor, writer, I've worked as a content manager at a company called Avvo.

I then moved on to Amazon, was a product manager, also a technical writer, and then left to start my own business in photography, and that's where I spent about five years. And then from that point, that's when 2020 hit. I had just started to get successful with my business, was actually making more money than I'd ever made in my life, whereas all these other photographers were saying, "I have no bookings, my business is dying," these are real people who are struggling to pay their bills or even to get groceries, but I was okay. I was actually doing okay. But right around that time I had a business coach who contacted me and she wanted help with her marketing, and so this is how I ended up going into coaching for myself because working with her, I helped her with marketing, she helped me with coaching, and it was just like magic. Working with her is why I went into coaching.

Chris Do:

There's one part here that you just brushed over, you brushed over a lot, but professional gamer, I didn't know that about you or maybe I just forgot. What game were you playing?

Jule Kim:

I said I was gaming full-time but not professionally. I was gaming competitively. I wasn't getting paid for it, but I was playing World of Warcraft and I was playing ranked games and I ended up coming in first or third on my server many times. I was in the top 10 consistently for more than six months, almost a year I think.

Chris Do:

Wow. I think you were the fantasy person of many gamer boys. It's like, "Oh my god, this is a person who loves gaming. They play full time. This is incredible." Every once in a while I see those influencers, these attractive women who play games full-time and they're very serious about it, I'm like, "Damn, where were you when I was a kid? This is unfair. This is wrong." And I think it's all fabricated, but I guess it's not.

Jule Kim:

No, it was definitely rare, and don't get me wrong, the gamer community, it's hard if you're not a dude. I definitely ran into a lot of hate just for being a girl. People didn't want to play with me literally just because I was a girl, but I also did get a lot of love from just random guys. I remember once I signed into a team server, it was TeamSpeak, I was joining a raid of all these guys and then I say hello and the whole room just went silent, and somebody was like, "Is that a girl? I think I heard a girl."

Chris Do:

Well, it's dangerous these days because you can use those voice, whatever they do, they change your voice and pitch. You can sound like a British man if you wanted to, you can sound like a black person, you can sound like a girl, so it's a phenomenon when a woman enters into an arena dominated by men and it's an anomaly, so some people think it's novel, some people think it's just another day, so they just treat you like everybody else. And there's some weirdos who are super sexist and can't deal with it.

And I think it's because it's an ego thing where you can lose to lots of people. It's very painful to lose to a 14-year-old kid, I'll admit that I get pwned all the time on Halo. Their reflexes are ridiculous. I'm like, "What are you doing? I didn't even know you could stand there. How'd you get there?" And then you're dead. And then the other thing is like, oh, you got beat by a girl, you can't handle yourself. And so there's that part, so I think it's them preemptively saying, "I'm going to suck and I can't handle being beaten by you, I think."

Jule Kim:

Yeah, whatever it was, it was just... I didn't know how to deal with it, it was just so hateful, but yeah.

Chris Do:

Yeah, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. But I think as far as I can tell, the world's changing. It's not a tidal wave, but it's starting to move a little bit so that those barriers are being broken down, and I think it's super cool that... It didn't matter what size, shape, gender you are, if you like to do something, you should be able to do it.

Jule Kim:

Yeah, obviously I can't agree with you more, but I do know that that's still the narrative a lot of people do cling onto, and it's uncomfortable. You got to face the reality that if you are someone who doesn't look like the other people in that field you're going into, if you come from a different economic background, you come from a different country, whatever it is, if you are different, it's going to be hard for you, and you're probably going to feel uncomfortable. To think otherwise is just unrealistic.

Chris Do:

All right. I was going to make a joke about who's this person called you more, because you're like, "I can't agree with you more." I'm just messing. Okay, let's get into it. You've gone through this crazy, crazy list and it's a stark contrast to my list because my list is like one, so you were a straight A student, you said you did the typical thing everybody... That's not typical. Not all of us are straight A students, myself included. Jules just threw it out there like it's nothing, and then you went-

Jule Kim:

The typical Asian thing. This is what Asian parents-

Chris Do:

Okay. I'm also Asian, but-

Jule Kim:

Asian tiger parents.

Chris Do:

Tiger parents, okay. You were a good tiger child I guess because you actually did it, where I was a bad tiger kid. Something like that, right? Okay, so straight A student, English major, switched over to math, finished school, started law school, quit that, dropped out, did gaming, editor, writer, content producer, photography, SEO, and now coaching. It's a little cray. It's a little cray. You're Korean-American, and I have to say I saw this post, hopefully I don't get this screwed up, there's a picture of another Korean American, it's his first career, NASA scientist, second career, astronaut, third career, Navy Seal. I'm like, "Come on, you Koreans are just so overachieving. What the hell?" I just barely got into art school and I just barely finished. Is it something about Korean-Americans that are just built to be superior?

Jule Kim:

Shoot, I am not going to touch that, man. I feel like it's... Let's just say it's part of the immigrant experience. I think that when you are an immigrant, you feel pressure to have to perform and to achieve because otherwise what did your parents sacrifice everything for? And by the way, you are just so full of it. You're talking about these overachievers, that guy with a NASA scientist. I'm like, "Dude, that guy's on another level."

Chris Do:

There's levels, right? There's levels to this game. He went to the next level.

Jule Kim:

Yeah. Yeah, but there's you. You're as successful as it gets in many people's eyes. You have this business, you've won freaking Emmys, you've built a huge brand, you've got all these followers, you're one to talk is what I'm trying to say.

Chris Do:

Okay, pot calling kettle black, you're saying. The thing is I've done well just doing one dumb thing. Just keep doing the same thing over and over again and just do it incrementally better every day, every year, and it seems to be working out pretty good. For someone like you, it seems like you can excel at doing whatever, so your big... I guess your biggest gift and your curse is you could do whatever, so what am I supposed to do? And for people who don't know, it's like Jule's amazing at helping people with search ranking, SEO optimization, content marketing, and she could be very, very financially successful. And she's like, "No, I'm going to do life coaching." She just switches and I'm just sitting here, when is the next switch coming? But we'll get more into that in a little bit. Okay, so you've gone through all these things. The question I have for you is what's the voice inside your head that says, "It's time for me to switch lanes again?" Take me there.

Jule Kim:

Man, that is such a good question. I don't think anyone has ever asked me this and I've been on so many interviews or podcasts. I think it's the feeling that this is not for me. I'll reach a point where at first going into it, I think I'm like everyone else. Everyone else is like, "Got to make some money, got to get good at this, and then I have to become established." I think we all go through this sort of trajectory when we enter a new career, but then for me, I'll run across something and it'll either be a moment of truth or... Well, it's always a moment of truth, but it'll either be something that really shows me either this is just so not for me, what am I doing? Why am I wasting my time with this? I don't want to feel like a failure, so it's that much harder to just let go, but I would say the voice is just essentially like, "This isn't for me and I really hate this, so why am I putting myself through this?"

Chris Do:

There's some things here, and I'd like to peel back this a little bit if we can, which is I think whenever we do something new, it's exciting, and then there's this part where we hate. We all hate it. Requires discipline, whether it's exercise, learning a new skill, anything like that, it's the rigor to push through the thing that you hate and then eventually you get good enough that you actually love it. What makes you so different than all these people who keep switching things and then start over at the bottom of the ladder again? Or maybe you're all the same. I don't know.

Jule Kim:

I think the difference is there are two different types of discomfort that are on the table here as far as I'm understanding this. There's a discomfort. When you start something new, we all really hate to suck at something. We universally hate it. I don't think I've ever met someone who says, "I love being bad at something." And so that's the first point of critical mass. You have to learn to get through that. I'm not saying you have to love it, but you do have to learn to get through that, push through it somehow, maybe accept it. At least accept it, right? You're not good at it, you have to learn to accept that, but you also have to learn to accept that it is possible for you to improve. And so I think one of the curses of the creative mindset is we all, or many of us subscribe to the idea that creativity is something you're either born with or you're not.

And when you think like that, you think that you either have it or you don't, so therefore, if you see yourself really being bad at something, you probably think you can't improve, and that was my biggest fear. I never had that problem before until I entered photography, and because it was creative, that's when I fell into that pit hole. That secret fear that I had never let myself actually voice was, "I don't know if I'll ever get better. I'm somehow so dumb I cannot improve." But when I finally pushed through that, I would say the human experience, it is inevitable that you will grow and improve. It's impossible not to, as long as you try. When you're asking me about the difference between me and other people, I would say most people will phase out at that first time, that first point of difficulty, which is facing that you are just not good at this.

What I've always been through, like my mini career switches, is I would reach that point of being really good, and so I would reach a second point of having to decide do I really want to commit more time and energy to this? I've reached a point where I feel like I'm pretty decent. In law school I drop out, my story is not like how a lot of people who drop out of law school is. I was actually in the top 10 or 20%. I requested my transcript because I was thinking about going back to law school maybe a few years later, and I looked at my report card and I was like, "Oh my god, my grades are..." They were all A's. I was actually really shocked. I didn't remember that. And so this is the thing, a difference between washing out because you don't even give yourself the chance to actually become good at it, and then there is a difference between making a choice where it's no longer about that, it's whether you actually want this.

Chris Do:

Are those the two differences there, where the discomfort of sucking so much causes you to quit as opposed to, I'm good at this, but asking yourself the bigger question, is this something I want to get really good at?

Jule Kim:

I would say so, and that's something... You've probably heard of the zone of genius, right?

Chris Do:

Mm-hmm.

Jule Kim:

For anyone who doesn't know this, Gay Hendricks came up with this excellent theory or model, whatever you want to call it. He says, "Most people are stuck in their zone of excellence. Most people will spend most of their lives doing something they're good at and they do not push on to do something they love and the thing they're actually meant to do, the thing that they can only do because that's their actual gift." We all kind of get mired in this idea of, well, I'm good at it and it makes me money or it brings me something, and it's really hard to let go of that.

Chris Do:

It's a theme and a topic that keeps coming up, one that I'm very passionate about, and the more I tap into this energy, this idea, the more I'm seeing it in different forms. I think it was Picasso who had this quote, says, "The meaning of life is to find your gift, and the purpose of life is to give it away." We're talking about the gift, you just mentioned the gift, and I think we put air quotes in the word gift right now, because it means a lot of different things. And then I'm hearing these, what are they called? New age mystics who talk about your highest purpose is to find your passion, the thing that gives you joy and follow that with all of your heart because then you elevate your frequency, your energy, and that's what we're supposed to be doing. And so here you are saying, "Okay, I could be good at lots of things. I could be good at SEO, I could be good at content writing. I could be good at maybe even being a lawyer, I don't know," but you're like, "Is that really my gift?"

And so the last transition that you made, and I remember having this conversation with you about, saying, "Chris, I want to be a life coach. I'm going to go get the training, I'm going to be certified. I'm going to do this thing." And I was like, "Jule, what are you doing? This is kind of crazy. You're doing great with what you're doing, you're known for it, you have a skill and a knack for this. Why would you do that?" And you said what?

Jule Kim:

This isn't going to paint me in a good light because it sounds like I was running away, but I think I said at the time SEO was killing me. It felt like it was just draining the life out of me, and I had clients... I followed the plan that you and I had kind of worked out together, and it was an amazing plan, and literally I just did everything that we agreed that I would do, and success was almost instant. I was actually mind boggled because I had never experienced something so quick happening like that, but then I reached that point again. It's like, "I know I'm good at this, I know I can help people." I wasn't a fan of the type of clients I was working with, which I think might've been my mistake there. I didn't really put in the effort to work with the right kind of clients, so that was part of it, the soul sucking energy. But yeah, it was that. I was just like, "I don't believe life is meant to be spent feeling constantly drained, hating your work every time you work."

Chris Do:

I think there's something to that though about being persistent and tempering your expectations such that you can go through the first, I think three years to doing something and it's going to suck and it gets progressively less bad and then eventually gets kind of okay and tolerable, then it gets really good. Because I think of my own life and career in that the first couple of creative jobs that I had as a freelancer and then as a business owner, they weren't the best opportunities, they weren't the best clients. And yes, I was expecting to work with Nike, which we eventually did, or a big car company, which we did, but it wasn't overnight. It was just grinding it out. One of the first gigs that I got as I was graduating from ArtCenter as a freelancer was designing a brochure for a third, fourth tier bank, but I did not go to art school to design brochures, a tri-fold brochure for a no-name bank.

It's like the most prosaic thing you could get me to do. I wanted to jump off the train, if you will, but then you kind of stick it out. And so I think you do recognize something there that what was killing you was the kinds of relationships you're having, the things that you had to exchange your time for, your passion, your energy, and it wasn't for people that you liked or loved. And that probably hurt it for a bit, and I think as I know you now, there's some doors being cracked open a little bit that you might return to doing a little bit of that, but making sure it's aligned with the people you want to work with, the things that give you joy.

And I think you're absolutely right here, and if anything, this podcast, the conversations that I have is to hopefully inspire that kind of joy, that spark in people that they were told to do something, and at some point you do wake up and you realize my life is short. My time here on earth is finite. I must listen to that inner creative soul, that urge to do what it is I was put on earth to do. And so when I invite guests to come on the show, it's because I want them to tell their story, and so that somebody out there, whoever's listening to this, can hear that and say, "Oh, wait, identify with this person. This story relates."

And I do want to pick up on something that you mentioned, which was you were okay with this mindset that whatever you pursued you're going to be good at if you put in the work, but when it came to this, quote unquote, artistic endeavor of photography, you use different rules. Here all of a sudden it became binary. Everything else was a skill that could be acquired. For some reason, creativity, art, design, photography was either you got it or you don't got it, and nothing you do can improve that, but it turns out that's not true clearly. And where was it in that point in which, you said it was a five-year journey, where you started to say, "No, this is something I can acquire? These are skills that I can learn and develop just like everything else." What was that like?

Jule Kim:

There's a lot that goes into this. I think I hit that point that we're talking about where I finally started to come out of that mindset, and to be honest, I had imposter syndrome. I would say it was probably towards the end of two years. I say five years, but it's really only three years having a business because the first two years did not make any money. Made $0 because I was so stuck in imposter syndrome, and what I experienced is probably pretty common for Asians or Asian Americans because you grow up in an Asian tiger household, you are taught that everything you do is for the purpose of making money. There's no room to spend your time or to pursue things just because you like to. And then of course the idea of creative pursuits is just an immediate X. You're going to be a doctor, you're going to be a lawyer, you're going to be an engineer, and that's about it.

I know this story is pretty common and you come from that sort of upbringing. You've always thought creative stuff is just like B tier or just it's for other people who have amazing gifts, but not for me. And I never thought of myself as creative, did not see myself that... I'm not even a visual thinker. I'm not a visual person, so you think about somebody like that going into photography, it's like, "What on earth possessed you to do that?" And so with all of this stuff floating around in my head, you're right, it's like I did suddenly switch all of my rule system. Up until that point I did always think just apply myself, I can learn it, I'll be fine. Not going to be great at it from the get go, but I will get better, but it's because I felt like the creative field was just a completely different universe.

It's like I just entered and I had nothing. It's like I left all my experience behind and that was really hard. And also the other thing I'll bring up, I think it was the very first time I actually encountered a true challenge, and so you have to think of challenges as not just something that's hard, but what makes challenges challenging is the fact that it is the unexpected. It is something you have not encountered or anticipated before, which is what makes it so hard to deal with, and that was the thing. I had not really understood imposter syndrome, did not know that feeling of a fraud. I didn't go to school for this, so therefore I'm not legit. Blah, blah, blah. Story goes on.

Chris Do:

I wonder how moving through a bunch of different career pursuits, interests, fields of study and landing on where you are now, how does that impact your ability to coach other people? Because I have the opposite story, so I'm just taking notes for myself here, because sometimes I say to people, and I'm not even saying this as a false humility, I genuinely believe this, I'm a terrible teacher. I really am. And some people are, "No, we love you." I'm like, "I'm glad you do," but I'm a terrible teacher because it seems to me like what I pursue just works out and I just keep doing that, so when people aren't able to achieve and can't find that laser focus, haven't already tapped into their gift, their zone of genius, then I'm like, "Why don't you just do it?" And here you are, you're switching from one thing to the next and finding what presumably now is what you were meant to do, your gift. I have to imagine you could tell better stories, you can relate, you can share certain experiences that I just can't tap into. What are your thoughts on that?

Jule Kim:

Here's the thing, I think what really makes you special as a teacher is you have this unwavering confidence in people in general, yourself and other people, and this makes you so good at motivating people. I still remember this time, I was just reflecting this morning, literally there was a Clubhouse call you and I did with Martha and Lola, and at some point in the call you made this comment offhandedly, I know you don't remember it, but you said just like Jordan, sinks it every time or something like that. And this was two years ago, I remember feeling very taken aback and a little bit shaky. Again, that imposter syndrome like, "Oh, I've got Chris fooled, or he's just seeing the best part sometimes and he thinks I'm better than I really am."

But that's the thing that makes you special as a teacher, it's the fact that you speak in a way that just assumes that person is going to do it and make it and it makes the person feel like they can achieve it. Now, I think what makes me different from you is yes, because I've had such a wild variety of careers, I would say I've tried more careers than three people put together. There's stuff I haven't even told you about. I used to be an Avon lady. I've done the multi-level marketing. There's some pieces to this. I don't enjoy telling people-

Chris Do:

Professional skateboarder maybe too? No?

Jule Kim:

What was that?

Chris Do:

Professional skateboarder? It's like I'm trying to figure out what career have you not tried.

Jule Kim:

I know, skateboarding not for me, fell off, bruised my tailbone, that was an instant... Lots of crying, screaming. No, not physically gifted.

Chris Do:

Okay.

Jule Kim:

But yeah, I would say I've tried more careers and three or more people put together. I think that is what gives me the gift to coach people because I literally have experience in so many different fields and almost all of my clients are doing something that I've worked with or worked with something very related to that. But overall, I think it's the fact that I have gone through this pain so many times. That's what really makes me able to help people see that it's not so bad. You will come out, you're not going to die. You'll survive this and you know what? You're actually going to be better for it.

And it's the fact that I have gone through so many career transitions, that's the thing, because we talk about career transitions as if it's a bad thing, like you don't know your own mind, you can't make up your mind, you don't know yourself. All of that was true, but here's the thing, it's like every time you go through something you don't enjoy and you're able to be honest with yourself about that, the next time you do something you don't enjoy, you're able to be honest sooner, and so that painful learning curve actually gets shorter and shorter.

Chris Do:

Okay. I think what's really cool that you can speak to that a few other people can't, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say you've probably done more careers than three people put together. If it's me, than eight versions of my lifetime, I still wouldn't have pursued as many things as you've pursued. But that you can recognize the behavior because you once lived it, and I think that's really a way to connect with people to understand their pain and to be able to say, "I am going to empathize with you for half a minute here. We're going to talk about this and then you all can connect," where I'm like, "I don't get it. I just don't get it. Let's go do this and stop complaining." Either do it or don't, I don't want to talk to you anymore. That brutal coaching style.

Jule Kim:

That's a tough Asian dad love right there.

Chris Do:

Little bit. The funny thing is we recently had a conversation with our friend Nidhi Tiwari on LinkedIn about coaches, the good, the bad and the ugly, and I think you were asking me, what makes you a good coach? I'm like, "I don't even know if I'm a coach." I've studied nothing, I've done nothing. I said, "I play a therapist on TV and that's the level of which I've gone through." If you peel back the layers, like two layers deeper, there will be nothing there because that's as deep as I went. But surprisingly, people haven't pushed me there, and here you are, you kind of drop out for a little bit, which is kind of fascinating to me. Drop out meaning you're not doing client work, you're not going to take on any paying work, and so now you're going to pretty much live in debt while you pursue yet more training. I'm going to ask you this question, and I hope you don't find this to be insulting, but I do ask people who do this quite often, are you addicted to learning?

Jule Kim:

Oh, heck yeah. 100%. In imposter syndrome there are five types of imposter syndrome, and one of them is called the expert type. That is literally this. This is so many people. These are people who feel like they have to take all the courses, get all the education, get all the certifications, the degrees, and there is. And so I want to differentiate. There's addicted to learning because you just enjoy the sheer rush and the thrill from actually acquiring new knowledge, new skills you never had before. There is a special joy to that, but there is a difference when you are using that learning or to go down the learning path as a coping mechanism because you cannot deal with the discomfort of really sucking at something or the fear of putting yourself out there, the fear of changing, the fear of becoming someone you have never been before.

To actually switch careers, I see so many people out there where they've been doing their current career for 20 years, 30 years, and they really want to switch over. They want to start a business or they want to do something different, and they're just sitting there getting course after course, more certifications, and it's like, "When are you going to do the thing?" It's like I went through the same thing, which is why I recognize it. When I was doing photography, I told you two years making no money, that's not an exaggeration. I was doing exactly that. I was taking all the courses, I was going to workshops, and at some point my husband goes, "When are you going to take photos?" And I was like, "Ouch. Ouch, man."

Chris Do:

Husband of the year material.

Jule Kim:

He's pretty good. I would say as a partner goes, he's really good at sometimes telling me the thing that I have to hear. Don't want to hear it, but you got to hear it.

Chris Do:

Right. I say that to people, we all need a truth sayer in our life. Somebody you know that loves you unconditionally, but who's also not going to pull punches and sugarcoat things and say, "Yeah, being a photographer means you actually have to go take photos Jule." And you're like, "Oh, right, right. I just can't keep learning, right? I got to apply that." And again, I tell you right now, if we were twins born from the same parents and separated at birth, we could not be the more opposite. We really couldn't, so I find this fascinating to me because when I got into motion design, I was given opportunities to direct, quote unquote, direct commercials and music videos and I don't even know what I'm doing. And what I did was I bought a camera, I just took 10,000 bad photos, and then eventually I got good enough so I can show up on set and said, "Let's change the lens to this and let's open up the aperture to that. And I'm thinking something like this."

And I'm an anti-manuals, anti-coaching, anti... Not that I don't believe in them, it's just my style of learning is you just give me the stuff, I'll do it, and when I'm stuck, I'll ask somebody and I just need two sentences to what am I doing wrong and then I'll figure out the rest. It's kind of interesting where you dive into it for two years, getting training, all that kind of stuff, and I'm just taking 10,000 bad photos. We probably wind up at the same place in two years, we both know photography at that point, but it's just like, "Whoa." Just different styles of learning. I see you shaking your head. Why are you shaking your head?

Jule Kim:

Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. I would say we did not arrive at the same point. You taking 10,000 photos, you probably got to the point a year and six months before I did or maybe even sooner. And so there is a study, I think it was with either photography or pottery, and the study has been replicated many, many times. I know you know this story. It's where a professor starts a new class, it's the beginning of the year and he divides the class up, the students randomly, half and half. One group of students is told they only have to turn in one final project and that's what they're going to be graded on. The other students are told you can instead get your grade on just actually doing... I forget how many 100s of things and turning that whole collection in.

And by the end of the semester he looks at the quality of the work that's come out and hands down, without exception, all the students from the group where they just turned in all the 100s of photos, hands down quality of work was better. This is the thing, I think some people think that they're better at learning a different way, and I don't actually believe that. It is impossible to actually learn something without doing it hands-on. You simply cannot know if you haven't actually done it. You can try to think you know, but you really don't.

Chris Do:

You just shattered one of my beliefs, which is I watch a lot of mixed martial arts, I watch some training videos in self-defense, I keep thinking, "Boy, if I get into a scrap on the street, I'm going to be all right," but probably that's just in my mind. I'm going to get punched in the face and lose a tooth or something.

Jule Kim:

I'm not going to disagree. I'm not going to say anything. No comment.

Stewart Schuster:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Chris Do:

Welcome back to our conversation. You briefly mentioned there are five types of imposter syndrome. You mentioned the expert type, which is I need to go and study, and there's two kinds of studying, study to avoid doing the work and mostly just avoid rejection because if I don't ever do anything, no one will know. I think you referenced people, the people in quotes, but I think they're mutual friends of ours, I won't say their name. They'll know exactly who they are. And there's the other type of expert which is I'm going to learn so I can develop my craft. They're a little bit different. They kind of look the same from the outside, but one has a different intention, whether it's subconscious or conscious. What are the other four types?

Jule Kim:

The other types of imposter syndrome, I already went over the expert type, the one that I think most creatives will especially identify with is a perfectionist. It's pretty much like what you expect. It is what it sounds like. Now, I will say in main society, people are not really using the term perfectionist the way it is intended, and I'm talking when we're in the context of imposter syndrome. This is the person where if they achieve a 98%, they will be unhappy. They will focus on that missing 2% and they will just ruminate over it. They will obsess over why they didn't get the missing 2%, and they will very often say, "This was all shit. It was only a 98%," quote unquote, only. And so if you have somebody who experiences both the perfectionist and the expert type together, this is the person who never gets anything started. They will use that learning, I don't know enough, I don't know enough, and therefore I can't produce a perfect result.

They almost expect to produce it very quickly. They have to be perfect right off the bat. Of course, it's just not realistic, nobody is like that, it's almost impossible, and yet we all shoot for that impossibility. We think it's possible and we think that's how it's supposed to be, which is I think the lie. The next type is the soloist. This is the person who thinks they have to do everything on their own. They cannot ask for help, and in fact, they will reject offers of help from other people because to accept the help will mean they didn't actually do it. If they can't do something completely all on their own, they're going to feel like they don't get to own that achievement, and I experienced something similar when we worked on my Instagram together. There was a big part of me that felt like I don't actually deserve this growth because you helped me. These people would never have followed me if you hadn't helped me, and therefore these followers aren't really mine, they're your followers is what I was thinking. And this is what-

Chris Do:

Damn.

Jule Kim:

Yeah, this is why it's-0

Chris Do:

Holy cow. That's harsh. I'm listening to you say this, and my heart's breaking Jule. I know we've talked about this before, but I want to bring our audience into this. I'm not an emotional person, but I feel like I want to cry. I really do because it's like, "Man, you put in the work, you do the work and you can't even receive the credit for it for yourself." And it's not like coming from a person like me, I'm not saying, "Well, Jule, you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for me." It's like it's your default inner voice, I'm just... I'm sad for you. I don't know how else to describe it.

Jule Kim:

Well, I get the sense that you and I grew up with very different parents. My parents, don't get me wrong, I love them with all my heart, but sometimes, bless their souls, I really wish they would just keep something a thought in their head. They don't have to tell me everything they think. And the day that I sent them, or the day they received my wedding invitations, what is supposed to be a joyous occasion, getting people to actually RSVP, they get the invite, they call me up and my dad goes, "These are the ugliest wedding invitations ever. Why did you choose this color? These are just terrible. And who told you that your name should come first?" And so mind you, my parents had never been to a wedding ever. They don't understand that these are the conventions of weddings in the US. There are certain styles to adhere to. They don't understand any of this, and their default is to criticize the hell out of my wedding invitations. That is how I grew up.

A lot of the times when I did something, my dad would say, "You wouldn't have done that if it weren't for us," or something. And I didn't realize it at the time, but that became embedded in my brain. I just accepted that that was true, total truth, and of course it is, but it is different to come from that sort of upbringing versus someone like you. I think when I told you a little bit of how I was feeling, you told me like, "Hey, stop that. I can ask people to follow you, but they're not going to follow you if they don't actually see value in you. I can open the door, but the person has to walk through." And it goes on both sides of the door, and I think that's what makes it so hard is when you have that sort of critical inner voice, you accept so many things as true, and you think you don't deserve this unless you do it by yourself or unless you're perfect. There are so many reasons. Why are we torturing ourselves this way?

Chris Do:

I think we're talking about the Asian American immigrant refugee experience, but I think there's lots of people who can relate to this, and if you're not, I'll use this opportunity to do a little public service announcement for, let's just say you non-Asian, non-immigrant types where you're like, "What? This exists? Parents are terrible. Let's call the Child Protection Service." I tell you right now, looking back on my life, I am pretty blessed to have the parents that I have, but there are moments when I'm like... I'm watching those TV shows, if your parents say this to you, here's the phone number. And I'm like, "I'm going to tell on my dad. That's it. I can't handle this anymore." But then I'm hearing your story and I keep hearing this thing, this recurring theme about how Asian parents are, and Asian parents are amazing for lots of reasons, and they're terrible for a couple, so I'm not here to say they're bad, but it's like we get to choose what kind of parents we want to be.

And we can pick from any culture, cultures that are not even ours and say, "That's a pretty good practice." We can be this hybrid blend, and I always thought that was the advantage of immigrants, but they don't take advantage of that. What you do know with Asian parents is you know where you stand because they don't beat around the bush at all. You walk in the room, if you've gained five pounds, they say you fat, you eating too much. And it's like, "Hello, auntie, I just saw you." But you also know when you walk in and they throw their arms around your cheek, it's like, "You're the most handsome person." And you're like, "It's true, isn't it? I am, aren't I?" You know because there's no BS. There's none of that kind of western pleasantry.

But here's another downfall, I don't even know if this is an Asian thing, and those of you who are listening to this, please chime in at some point and let me know, which is I think they think they know everything, which is the most banana thing ever. If you're having back pain, they're like, "Oh, because you're not getting enough iron." It's like, "How do you even know that, mom, dad?" It's like, "This is incredible. When did you get your medical degree? This is incredible." Here you are in the creative space, having gone to western style weddings and understanding what you want and what you don't want, you're going to design this the way that you want, and then they're going to come in and opine about every single thing.

And I am going to ask for your help on this, but I suspect this is true. When you get 98%, you're like, "Why didn't I get that 2%?" Obviously, in my opinion, it's not your voice, that's your mom or dad's voice. You come home with a report card, it's like, "I got a 3.8 GPA this year, mom, dad." And they're like, "Why isn't it 4.0? You know your cousin's got 4.2?" They're not looking at for what you've brought to the table, it's like just what you're lacking. And so you download that default parent operating system, and it could be crippling. Okay, now I've said my piece. Jule is a person who studied this stuff, unpack that for us.

Jule Kim:

The short answer is absolutely, totally yes. And the way when I work with a client, if I see some of that coming up in a session, they're just wailing about the missing 2%, I ask them, "What is making you focus on this 2% instead of the 98% you do have?" And when we keep pulling the threads, it eventually traces back to, because that is how I've been taught things should be. Maybe it's your parents, maybe it's your teacher, it's some figure of authority. For most people it's going to be your parents, but a lot of times it's also your teachers, and the thing is, as children, we are not taught to question adults. We're taught to, we should always obey or listen to adults unless it's a situation of direct physical harm. But you know what? I actually think that the emotional harm that we suffer from other people's beliefs being projected on us, and then that sinks into our essence, that does a lot more harm, because you know what? It's like we grow up.

There are millions of choices we make, but out of those millions, there will be, let's say a dozen major choices. Major life event choices. And every time you come to that crossroads, you are probably making that choice listening to the voices in your head instead of to actually what you want. You the person minus all the other people around you, minus your obligations to your parents or to your culture, or to society, or the expectations you might carry as a female or a male or a non-binary, whatever it is. Have you ever just sat there and asked yourself, "What do I want, and only I?"

Chris Do:

It's one of these things where I keep thinking to myself, I'm a generally super positive, optimistic person, and anybody who wants to throw around their negative energy, I just like don't... Keep your negative energy to yourself because you're raining on my parade and I'm happy to be the leader of my parade. And I think there's this expression about the definition of a pessimist versus the optimist, which is the pessimist finds a difficulty and the optimist finds the opportunity and in the difficult. And there we are. It's like it could be your teacher, your friend, a relative, an uncle, somebody who's always just, oh, that's not going to work, that's dangerous. Or what makes you think you can do that? And boy, it's like if you hear that enough times, you forget that it's not even your voice anymore, and you internalize it so much, so deeply that it starts to impact you. Okay, we talked about the expert, we talked about the perfectionist, the soloist. What are the other two Jule?

Jule Kim:

The other two are the superhero and the natural genius. I'll go over the natural genius because this is also, again, a lot of creatives. This is where you expect yourself to be good at something from day one, which makes no sense, and these people will sit there and be rationally intelligent about this when they're talking about other people, and yet they hold those expectations for themselves. O this is a person who starts a new career or a new field, and they think they should already know everything, and I'm like, "What on Earth? How is that even possible? That's not really possible." This is a person who starts a new job and expects themselves to know everything about how the team works, how the company works, how all the tools and systems work from day one. And then the second thing that's really unique to the natural genius type is they judge themselves on the speed and ease with which they acquire competence, so how quickly and how easily they learn something or are able to learn something.

And therefore if something is difficult, what happens? They're like, "Oh, this isn't for me." They also tend to be the very early quitters because they have these very unrealistic expectations. Now, for the superhero type, this is the person who thinks they have to be everything. They have to be good at everything, and they have to be that person who is everything to everyone. And very easy way to spot them is they think that they're going to be the ones who work the hardest. They may not think that they are the smartest or the most naturally gifted, but their thinking is, "I'm going to grind this out and I'm going to become better at you. It may take me a million years, but I will eventually get there." They're the ones who are usually last to leave the work office. They're the ones who hold multiple obligations, where I would say the typical average person would be like, "Wow, that is a lot. How do you have so much going on?"

They might be the PTA president, they might be the church leader, and they're working a nine to five and they have five kids and they show up for all of their husband's work functions or vice versa. It's the person who thinks they have to be everywhere all at once. This person is the one who is most prone to burnout for obvious reasons, but it is that feeling of if I'm not working, I'm not achieving, and if I'm not achieving, then I'm not worthy or even I'm worthless. What am I doing with my life? And so there's an extreme tie to achievement. If they're not achieving, if they're not looking to their next goal. This person will get a promotion and they're already over it two days later. They're already like, "What's next?"

Chris Do:

It's kind of interesting because I'm just double checking with myself how many of these traits do I exhibit the way you describe it? I don't think I have imposter syndrome, or at least I don't have it anymore, or maybe it doesn't rear its head up as often as it used to. But as I look at your list, it's like I think I'm an expert, I think I'm a natural genius, I'm pretty good at the things I start. Sometimes I can work like a monster, so yes, superhero. And people often ask me do I need help, and I don't generally ask for help.

It's not because I think I don't want help, it's just I don't know how I ask for it in a way that I think benefits both of us, so I'm like, "I don't know." And I don't know if I'm a perfectionist, but I strive to make things better all the time, so it's like evolution towards perfection, but not out of the gate. Is it possible to look at these same traits and say, "That's what led me to my self-confidence versus being an imposter?" What do you think?

Jule Kim:

I think the difference between overcoming challenges in a healthy manner versus succumbing to imposter syndrome, that's the difference you're describing. Let's take the thing for asking for help for example, because that's something I've actually noticed about you. You may not ask for help, but you also don't turn it away when it's offered, and that's something that isn't very common. Just the other day, I was reading someone's Facebook post and this guy was saying he's been having such a hard time, blah, blah, blah, and someone says, "Why don't you ask for help? I'm sure there would be people who would be willing to help you out." And the original poster replies with, "I don't do handouts."

And I'm like, "Dude, you live in a society. You're not like some hermit living on top of a mountain by yourself." It is not a badge of courage to suffer alone. It's not, especially when there's this stubborn refusal to ask or even to accept help from others. So many people, especially men, subscribe to that theory. They think they can't ask for help, and some people, they don't want to be a burden to others, I get that. But to actually reject help, that's not a badge of courage, and so many people treat it like it is. It's just I look at that kind of person, I'm like, "That is a person who refuses to learn, who refuses to leverage the collective knowledge of culture or the people around them, the community. They refuse to learn and they're actually inefficient at leveraging resources." That's how I see that. And that's what makes you really different.

Perfectionism. You mentioned how you always strive to make things better, to improve upon things, and maybe one day get to perfection. The major difference here is striving for excellence versus striving for perfection, and I would say perfectionism in the context we've been talking, in the destructive pattern, it is the pursuit of everything that is wrong. It is the pursuit of the worst within us, within what we do, and to never accept that it's good enough. That is the complete opposite of what you're talking about, which is simply looking for ways to make things better.

There's nothing wrong with that. And so if you're sitting here, you're listening and you're asking yourself, "How do I know if it's healthy or unhealthy," I would say, "Look at how it makes you feel. Look at how it makes you make certain choices." As soon as you start to feel like something isn't good enough or you're not going to take that next step, or you're not going to contact someone, you're not going to send this email, you're not going to post this thing to your website, if you feel small, if you feel like you're not good enough, that's usually a sign you're starting to veer towards the unhealthy side.

Chris Do:

This was just an elaborate ploy for me to fish for compliments from you. Appreciate you playing along.

Jule Kim:

Well, you're the person who said you're happy to be the leader of your own parade. I love that, by the way. So good.

Chris Do:

I am. I am, I just draw you in. I think there's a quote here, and I wrote it down from Jim Rohn, I'm going to butcher it, but it's okay for you to work hard for the things that you want while being happy with what you have. And I think that's the balance when you were describing it, where you can say, "You know what? I can improve this website." But I did it and I'm happy with what I have, so I'm simultaneously ambitious and I want to be a world beater, but I'm also super gracious with myself to say, "You know what? All right, that's what you could do with what you have, and tomorrow will be a better day, and we're cool with this."

And I have friends from different fields of expertise, and of course they want to jump in there, immediately say, "Chris, you shouldn't be doing that. That's not good." I'm like, I know it's not perfect, but I'm working on it. No, that's not to your standard. I'm like, "You don't know what my standard is. That's not to your standard." But I'm cool with this. I'm cool. If you want to help, great, whatever, but I try not to let their critical voice, even though it comes from a really good place to affect how I feel about myself. I'll give you an example.

I'm just going to say this. I have very short eyelashes, relatively speaking. I don't have those thick, dark eyebrows, and if you want to be very expressive on camera, you need thick, dark eyebrows, and so I'm at my dermatologist, I'm like, "Oh, does that thing work?" They're like, "What? This?" And it's a product called Latisse. I'm not being paid for this, by the way. And they're like, "It does. Look at my eyelashes." I'm like, "Damn, you're saying from that?" I'm going to give you a box. And I think they're taken aback because I don't think most guys even care this much about their skin or all these things. And then I've been trying it out, and then I go to my wife, "Baby, look at my eyes," and I'm blinking at her. I'm like, "You notice anything different?" She goes, "Oh, you have something in your eye?"

I'm like, "No, no. Look at my eyes. Baby, look at my eyes. Anything different?" And she goes, "No." I'm like, "You mean my eyelashes aren't any longer?" They're not. I can't even tell. I can't even tell myself, I'm just playing around with her. She goes, "What are you doing, babe?" I'm like, "I'm trying this product." And she goes, "When you wear glasses, people can't even see it, so isn't it just a waste of your time?" And I'm like... I just gave her a look, I don't say anything, and I just walk away. And then later on she comes over to me, it's like, "Okay, I'm sorry. You do whatever makes you happy. I'm not here to rain on your parade."

And it's like, if it gives you joy, do it. I'm like, "I'm just trying stuff, I don't know." And I would say we landed in a very nice place, not that I was angry, I'm like, "God, there's just so many people out in the world who want to tell you what you're doing isn't cool." And I've lived with that for a long time, I'm not going to deal with that anymore, so I just usually smile when people throw their opinions at me and I just gently walk away and I'm like, "Okay, so be it. There, I've said it Jule."

Jule Kim:

Oh my God, the part where you just said, "We're just trying stuff, I don't know," I think that is the philosophy right there. When you asked me how did I go through so many careers, it's like literally that. I'm just trying stuff. I don't know, man. Get out of my face. It's like ideally I could go back to 20 years ago and take these personality tests or take these career personality things, there's so many of them out there now. I didn't have that, so I was proceeding as best I knew, but the one thing I knew that I didn't want was this life feeling like the golden handcuffs. Hating my life, getting up every Monday, going to a job I hated, doing work I hated, being around people I didn't really like for what? A life of, meh. No, thank you. When you were just saying, "We're just trying stuff, I don't know," so what if we all gave ourselves the grace to just take that statement in?

Chris Do:

Clearly that's not as easy to do as it is for us to say, because so many people have some challenges around this. And the thing is, when my kids try stuff, I'm like, "I might have an opinion. Then just bite my tongue." I'm like, "Nope, you get to try stuff too." As long as you can live with the consequences and then you're doing it on your dime, try as many things as you want. Sometimes I'll support it and sometimes it's like, "No, you're on your own on this one, kid, that's fine by me."

I leave that open. Now, there's something that you wrote recently that I saw on social and I think it's time that we talk about this, because I was saying I was fishing for a compliment. It's a theme of compliments. You wrote, "How you receive a compliment says a lot about the inner dialogue here." I think in one of your posts recently or video you said, "Okay, so if somebody says something nice to you, how do you respond to that when somebody pays you a genuine compliment?" Take me through the concept and explain what you're talking about, please.

Jule Kim:

Compliments and how we take them ended up being a hotter topic than I ever realized. It's something super interesting I've been seeing on TikTok and on Instagram. And for whatever reason, most of us confuse humility with we should not be confident. If we're confident, that means arrogance. That's not the case at all. And some of us come from cultures where it's simply the norm to turn away a compliment, to deflect a compliment, or to turn this into some sort of weird compliment battle. It's like someone says, "Well, I like your purse." Oh yeah, I like your hair. Well, I like your outfit. It's very strange and ridiculous to me, but that's just how I grew up. One of the more subtle signs of imposter syndrome, this is it right here. How you handle a compliment. If someone says for example, "Oh, you did a really good job with that presentation," I want you to look at what your reaction is.

Is your reaction to say thank you, or more likely, are you one of the majority of the people that says, "Oh, this? This was nothing. Oh, this? This was nothing special." Or you say, "I had help. No, I only got this good because someone helped me." And so that's why I had some of that difficulty with you helping me with Instagram. Oh, I only got here because Chris helped me. That was really hard for me because it felt so true, and here's the thing, it's like something can be true, you did help me, obviously you did, but what I was doing in that moment that was just so terrible for myself is I was throwing away all the work I did. I was throwing away the fact that I came up with these ideas. It's not like you sat here and wrote my posts for me, it's not like you told me what to write about.

I did that on my own, and yet I felt all of that was just in the trash, did not exist. And so look at how you take a compliment or even a gift. Same thing. People feel like they accept the gift and then what's the thing? They feel like they have to immediately reciprocate, and so ask yourself, what kind of energy is that coming from? Is it, I genuinely want to give this person a gift just because I want to, or is it because I don't want to owe someone something? And so even the act of receiving a compliment or receiving a gift, if it triggers I don't want to owe someone something, that's the thing to look at. And by the way, the reason why I am going over some of these examples, like I had help, I had connections, oh, they just liked me, those are all very subtle signs of imposter syndrome.

Chris Do:

There's a lot of stuff to talk about here. I want to talk about the gifts, I also want to talk about the compliments and then I'll get you to psychoanalyze it. I think as a person who grew up painfully shy, socially awkward, any amount of attention was not wanted, especially around people that I'm uncomfortable or don't know. Strangers essentially. And so the first part of my life is somebody who's like, "Oh, you're really good at math." I'm like, "No." It's not even I wouldn't say anything, I'm like, "No, I don't want you to even look at me right now." I just can't process. Now, if I'm at home with my family, my uncles, my relatives who would say, "Oh, you're good at drawing," I'm like, "Thank you." That was cool because I was comfortable, and so for me it was just about my introversion, my lack of social skills, something like that.

But as we move on in life, if somebody walks up to me and says, "Your work is amazing," I say, "Thank you." I don't feel compelled to say nice things back to them because I only want to say it if it's true. I know it's a knee-jerk reaction, I'll just say thank you. Now, if I can shed some light on what's going on in my brain, I would say it's data, it's somebody's opinion, and I appreciate their opinion and it was said kindly to me, but it's just data. I already knew before they said if it was good or if it was bad.

There's a few times in which it's in the gray area where I'm like, "Is it good? I'm not quite sure just yet." When people say to me it's good, that's just confirmation for me, it's confirmation bias. It's like, "Oh, yeah. I am pretty sure it was." And if somebody says it's bad, I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, I don't think so. I think that's your opinion. That's okay. You're allowed to have it." If you said it nicely, I appreciate it. If you said it meanly, it's okay too. It's just data. What is going on with me and how I'm processing that in terms of maps out with what you've observed?

Jule Kim:

Let's say you're the control, okay?

Chris Do:

Okay.

Jule Kim:

But control as in this is not how... Okay, I should not call you the control. Nevermind that. Let's say you're this other category of people, which unfortunately I would say is far in the minority. The thing that you are experiencing where you've gotten to this place is what you just said. You already know. You see what you do and you have already made up your mind on what that thing is, whether it's good, bad or neutral. Whatever it is, you have made up your mind. You've decided that this is your assessment and that's what's going to matter most. Sometimes you have these situations where you might not be so sure, but that doesn't seem to be your norm, and you said you know before anyone even says anything, and so people who tell you what you already know, it's like, "Great." You agree. People who tell you something totally in disagreement, you're like, "That's okay, you're entitled to your opinion."

I would say that's probably one of the healthiest responses to have to these kind of situations because what you are not doing is seeking approval or validation from people outside of yourself, and at some point in your life you have learned to give these things to yourself and you're kind of like a closed circuit. You have everything, you're the self-sustaining ecosystem, and therefore you can allow other people to be who they are because you don't actually need anything from them. What happens for most people, especially creatives, they create something, they take a photo, they design a website, they create a logo, whatever it is, and then they go and ask people what do you think? What do you think? And they're kind of like that weather vane.

If the person says, "This is amazing," then they're pointing in one direction, but then they get two people who are like, "God, this is garbage. What were you thinking? This needs to be fixed. This needs to be fixed, that needs to be changed, this color selection, horrible." Then now they're pointing a different way. And here's the really funny special thing that makes us a human is you can have 100 people tell you this was amazing, and if you get even 3 people telling you this is garbage, it's like all the 100 people did not exist, and it's because you have not learned to be confident in yourself. You have not learned to meet your own needs, so you constantly are looking to others to meet those needs. You're looking for that validation.

Chris Do:

I'm going to say this, and it's probably dangerous for me to say, but I'm going to put it out into the universe. I do get a lot of feedback from the posts and the videos that I share. Clearly not all of it's good. I generally pay a little bit more attention to the negative stuff, but not for the reasons in which you think. People who say, "Oh, inspirational post, love the way you think," it's like I don't know what else to do with that, there's nothing left to learn. When somebody's like, "But Chris, you didn't take into consideration neurodivergent people, I have autism, blah, blah, blah," and they say, "I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but it misses these points," I look at those as fantastic learning opportunities. I'm not feeling less than myself, but I'm looking for like, "Ooh, there's an opportunity to improve. I can do this. I can consider this next time."

Or somebody's like, "Oh, you're just blabbering on for the first five minutes. There's no value there." Another person would be destroyed by that, I'm like, "I guess we could get to the point quicker. Maybe there was a little bit too much setup and the internet wants it a little faster maybe." And if I see that happening often enough, then I'm like, "Oh, clearly that vocal minority represented by more than just one angry person." I was like, "There's something there. I think they just want me to get right to it." Or maybe in this thing I'm using too much bombastic energy and it's just throwing off my introverted friends out there, and so yeah, I got to be sensitive to that. I'm going to tune in."

But it's not a reflection of my self-worth or my self-esteem, it's just, hey, there's more data. Some people don't like lemon cream sickles, and they're like, "Okay, we should probably make a fewer of them and more of the vanilla ones," or whatever, or the mint chocolate chip ones because it seems like a lot of people like that. Because I'm in a business of making things that people want to consume, and so I just throw it out there that the constructive feedback, and sometimes it doesn't come packaged really nicely, I'll say it that way, I actually do spend more time either responding, thinking about processing or asking clarifying questions. And people think I'm trolling them. I'm not trolling you, I'm just trying to find more information from you because I think there might be something in there. If there isn't, there isn't, and that's fine. What are your thoughts on that, Jule?

Jule Kim:

I think it's mostly that data perspective that you're talking about. Okay, there are two things. One, the data, when I said, or you said you're looking at data and it's just all data. You have managed to separate the facts of what's actually happening and then to try and take the useful pieces without making it mean something about you. This is where most of us don't even realize we're doing that. We're equating what we produced or created with our self-worth. You don't do that. You're like, "This is just something I worked on." Data, yes. Remember I said, "If you've got 100 people telling you something is awesome, you've got 3 people telling you it sucked," you're not looking at the data, you're only looking at the bad data. And the second part of what you were just describing, people think you're trolling them when you're just asking questions, it can sound like a dumb question, which is why they think you're trolling them. And sometimes I get that reaction too when I ask someone, what was it about that that made you so upset?

And they look at me like I'm crazy, or they start to get angry at me. I know you've had that experience too, but it's like, "Really, what was it about that?" And when they can come out of that, the grip of emotions and actually look at that, what was it about that? Was it the look? Was it because they thought they were being mocked or was it just how they felt and actually had nothing to do with what the other person did? And if we can start to get at the actual data, I would say you will take a huge leap towards you feeling healthier about yourself, you feeling better all around because now it's not all about you. It never was about you, and I think that's the thing that we fail to understand as people.

Chris Do:

Something I learned from my business coach Keir McLaren, he told me this because we had a couple rockstar creatives in our company, and for some reason I couldn't figure out why they created so much drama. And I'm an anti-drama kind of guy, I just want to go to work, be inspired by the people that work and to try to do our best every day, and knowing that some days are tough, some days are good, and we're okay with everything in between. And what he told me was people who grow up in families that are toxic, that have a lot of drama, they feel uncomfortable around environments that aren't like that, so what they do is they recreate those same situations, the drama, the toxicity, so that they can feel at ease because it's something very familiar with them. And there's very real tangible things, it's not some imagined thing that I would have.

I start to understand that. They create that kind of energy, so I think about that a little bit. When somebody is in your comments responding to your TikTok video with so much vitriol, it's like I think they grew up in a place where that's what was normal. Some cultures like to argue and yell each other, and that's the term of endearment. I don't understand that myself, but okay, and so when you do not respond in the way that they're used to, it's very dysregulating for them. They get even more upset because they're expecting you to yell back so that they can then go back and forth with the banter with you, but when you say, "Help me understand what you mean by this. Can you expand on this? What part of this are you referring to, or do you think the opposite is better? Because I'm just trying to get your perspective here."

And then they just lose it. They go nuclear war on you instantly, or more often than not, at least with me, they don't respond at all. They just shut down, because they don't know how to respond. And so I don't mean to shut them down. I'm like, "What do you really mean? Tell me. Is there more to this, because I'm just trying to get more data? You said you don't like it, but is it the color? Is it the tone? What is it about it that you don't like because I'd like to improve?" But for them it's a foreign language and they don't know how to process. Do you think it's something like that, Jule?

Jule Kim:

Oh, absolutely. If you have grown up in a place, and I'm going to make this a super ridiculous example, okay? Actually not a super ridiculous example, but you know how I visited London recently and for the first time in my life I saw a black swan. Now, imagine if you've only ever seen white swans, which I think is true for a lot of people actually, and then you see a black swan, you're like, "That's not a swan. There is no such thing as a black swan." It's simply what you have seen. If this is all you've ever experienced, then yeah, that's how you're going to react, and the unfortunate consequence of that is if you don't recognize that this is simply because of how you grew up, this is your set of expectations that have been created from the environments you've been exposed to all your life, then you might not know what you're doing.

You might not realize you're starting to recreate the same sorts of chaotic circumstances, or whatever it is, and then you're going to start mapping some sort of intent to the other person's behavior. If you're used to a family that always screams and yells at each other, and then you come across somebody, you start dating someone who didn't grow up like that, and you start screaming at them and they instead say, "I need to cool down and I'm going to take some time to myself," what ends up happening a lot of times there is the first person thinks that other person does not care. They feel ignored, they feel dismissed, and they feel like the other person doesn't love them because that other person isn't responding the way they expect them to."

Chris Do:

I know I can talk to you about lots of things, and I think everybody who's been on this journey with me on this conversation, it's like a warm blanket on a cold day talking to you. It feels very comforting. And I know you've got some exciting things coming up, this affirmation deck that I got an opportunity to take a look at. What is this all about? How did this come to be? And tell us if we want to get our hands on this, what do we need to do?

Jule Kim:

Oh my gosh. Warm blanket, okay. I'm going to say, remember I told you your voice is like a buttery croissant? I bet a lot of your listeners would agree here. Anyway. But yes, I do have these new affirmation cards that I've been working on since late last year. Been lucky to work on this with Penguin Random House and one of their in print zeitgeists, it's called Self-Love Affirmations & Reflections, and through some of the stories I know you and I have been talking through, sometimes some of us grew up with parents that just weren't super supportive because they didn't know how to be. If you feel like you actually don't know how to love yourself, which is how I felt, and I think that's what makes you so good at what you do is because you do know how to love yourself, Chris, and that's what really makes you stand out.

But if some of you are like how I was, you want some help here, you might find this useful, these affirmations. And so what makes these cards a little bit different is you don't get just an affirmation, but on the backside of each card is something to think through. That's the reflection piece. For example, one of the affirmations is when love comes my way, I embrace it, and so then the reflection piece is some of what we've been talking about with the compliments and the gifts. So many of us are really good at doing for others, giving for others, spending our time for others, but when it comes time for us to accept the same from others, we have an incredibly hard time receiving. It's like, "Why is that?" I think these cards can help you start to really understand yourself and maybe treat yourself with a little bit more love and compassion.

Chris Do:

Do you happen to have a early release prototype in your vicinity?

Jule Kim:

I do.

Chris Do:

Can you hold it up to camera and show it to us?

Jule Kim:

Yeah.

Chris Do:

Because I love cards, by the way, everybody, and some of us get a little scared about the commitment. Ooh, nice. Some of us get scared about commitment of reading a book, and so I always love it when authors are able to turn what they know into something tangible, something small, something bite size. Jule's holding up this beautiful box, it's a black box with some kind of floral print design, but very neutral in terms of its gender. I love it so far. It's much bigger than you would think, it's not playing card size. It's probably four times as big, so can you hold one up, show us?

Jule Kim:

Yeah.

Chris Do:

Okay.

Jule Kim:

Here's one of the cards.

Chris Do:

Okay.

Jule Kim:

I'll show you next to my face. It's basically like the size of my face.

Chris Do:

The size of a person's face, or at least Jule's face. Okay. And so, are they color coded? Are they different designs to represent the different concepts, or are they all the same?

Jule Kim:

They are color coded. We've got what I would call the happy cards-

Chris Do:

Okay. Show me.

Jule Kim:

... the ones that represent more joy. We've got healing cards, we've got maybe quieter reflection cards, and then we've got really power cards. And those are the four themes that we've got going on.

Chris Do:

Okay, so there's four different colors and let's hold two of them up that are different colors. I'll describe it for our friends who are listening to this on the podcast. Okay, so Jule's holding up two cards. One is orange, one is a goldenrod maybe. One's a deeper red orange, and then the other one's a kind of a yellow orange. Okay, so one says, "I stand up for myself." Let's look at that one. Is this a power card?

Jule Kim:

Yes.

Chris Do:

Okay. How did I know? I stand up for myself. Okay. And then what does this say on the back? Can you flip it over and then read to us? Okay. It's about... Okay, cool. It's about the point size in which you would typeset when you're junior high trying to get away with murder. It's like 72 point type with double spacing to fill out your book report. Of course you'd get busted for this if you're in school, but we're not in school, so I just let you know how much copy is there. Okay, can you read that card? I stand up for myself, so I'm like, "Okay, that's an affirmation. I stand up for myself."

Jule Kim:

Yeah.

Chris Do:

Now, what does it say on the backside?

Jule Kim:

It says, "Finding the confidence to use our voice is one of the most satisfying acts of authenticity. Although it may feel intimidating, expressing genuine thoughts and feelings is important for self-respect. Consider one area where you've kept silent. What message would you like to communicate around this experience? Practice standing up for yourself in a way that feels comfortable and supportive. This might include speaking in front of a mirror, rehearsing with a friend or writing in a journal."

Chris Do:

I like that. Very precise and allows me to go a little bit deeper because I know some of you're listening to this maybe, and you're like, "Affirmations deck." I'm going to roll my eyes here. I'm not going to read a bunch of Hallmark cards. But on the backside, there's something for you to go deeper and some things for you to try out, so I really like that. How many cards are in the deck, so to speak?

Jule Kim:

There are 52 cards, and I've designed this to be an experience where you would look at each card and really think about it one per week, but obviously you can do whatever you like with these, and some of the cards will actually prompt you to think about it for the day or the week or even the month. For example the when love comes my way, I embrace it, that's one of the ones where I want people to actually think about it and treat it like a theme for the entire month.

Chris Do:

I like that. How much do they cost and where can I get them?

Jule Kim:

I believe in the US they are priced at 16.99, you can find them on Amazon or you can find them on Penguin's website, but obviously probably easier for people on Amazon. They're on pre-order status right now, and they officially go on sale October 31st, so if you pre-order now, you'll actually lock in the price. If for any reason they go on sale, you'll actually be guaranteed the lowest price possible, so you have nothing to lose if you pre-order.

Chris Do:

Did you mention this other retail store where you can get them at? Come on Jule.

Jule Kim:

This is Chris being amazing. Urban Outfitters has agreed to pick them up and stock them in their stores nationwide, so I don't know if they're going to be available in other countries. The affirmation deck will be available in Europe on Amazon, but I don't know about Urban Outfitters. Urban Outfitters in the US for sure will stock these cards, so you may see them there local to you.

Chris Do:

I think that's kind of a BFD, a big freaking deal. First time author, publisher of stuff, and then here you are leaning into your zone of genius and it seems like things are lining up for you really fast. Not in a million years where I'd think, "Oh, I'm going to make something that's going to be at Urban Outfitters," a place where I would visit quite frequently in my youth, so it's so cool. And it's just I think the universe saying to you, "Keep going, Jule. Keep going."

Jule Kim:

That's how I'm going to take it for sure, and thank you. Thank you so much. Big freaking deal. You're right.

Chris Do:

It is.

Jule Kim:

I think I'm a little afraid to say it's a big freaking deal, but it is. It is.

Chris Do:

Let it out. They're not going to cancel the order, it's going to happen. There's not going to be a shipping disaster where they're like fall off a truck and people can't get them, so we're going to encourage everybody, I don't know when this episode's going to drop, but if you've enjoyed this conversation, a 16.95 or 17 bucks is super a bargain. I buy books way more than this, and this is... It's a substantive thing that you can have from a person that's got a lot of substance herself. You can go and pre-order it on Amazon, do that, it'll help her, and when you get it, leave a review. And if you are so inclined and you want to go check these out in person, hold them in your hands wherever they're available, Urban Outfitters and probably other retail locations to be announced. Jule, it's been a real pleasure talking to you today. If people want to find out more about you and get into what it is that you do, maybe they need a life coach, maybe they want to check out your grammy grams or your TikToks, where do they go?

Jule Kim:

My handle is @itsjulekim, so I-T-S Jule Kim on both Instagram and TikTok, and if you want to look me up on my website, seattlelifecoach.org. Thank you so much, Chris.

Chris Do:

You're welcome. I just want to spell Jule for the people who don't know how to spell. It's J-U-L-E. It's not J-E-W-E-L or something. It's J-U-L-E, Jule Kim. If you can't spell Kim, we're in deep trouble here. You're probably not our audience, anyways. Thank you very much everybody for listening, and thank you Jule for sharing your journey, for being so transparent, and I wish you continued success.

Jule Kim:

I'm here for all of it. Thank you for being my friend, Chris.

Chris Do:

My pleasure.

Jule Kim:

This is Jule Kim, and you're listening to The Futur.

Stewart Schuster:

Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Stewart Schuster. Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode, and thank you to Adam Sanborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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