Radim Malinic:

We go 100 miles an hour every day. We create so much stuff. We do all the LinkedIn posts, and the social posts, and all the clients, and all the deals, and all of that, and try to be parents, and partners, and human beings, and athletes, and all that. When do you actually look back and say, "Actually, you know what? I don't know where I'm going because it all feels fine, but I just feel like something's telling me I should be doing this. But, am I doing it for myself?" I think that's the key. When do you stop?

Chris Do:

My guest for today's podcast is Radim Malinic, and I met him recently at the RJD DesignThinkers conference. We sat next to each other, and we're both signing books, and there's a lovely gentleman. I'm pleasantly surprised to find a new voice in the creative world, which I'm really digging into his work, he does beautiful work, and understanding his background. This book that we're going to talk about in a little bit, it's called Creativity For Sale. It's an interesting title, Radim is going to help us understand and unpack why that is. I believe his unique background speaks a lot about why this is called this. For everybody who doesn't know who you are, can you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit of your backstory?

Radim Malinic:

What a lovely introduction, Chris. Thank you very much. Yes, we met very much at that moment, unannounced. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a Czech-born British designer. I'm a Creative Director of my agency called Brand Nu Studio. I'm a Founder of Brand Nu Books, my independent publishing imprint. I'm an Author. I'm a creative thinker, I just play with creativity. After 22 years in the industry, I'm on a mission of very much giving back, problem solving, helping new creatives have an easier journey into the whole process. Because I started, not even at low ground zero, I started minus five staircases, trying to get out and work out everything bit-by-bit, not necessarily with people who knew how to teach us properly, not necessarily look after our interests. So, I'm very much on a mission to give back.

Chris Do:

I love that. I think there's a lot of synergies here. For our creative audience, I want to start here with this book title, Creativity For Sale. I think a lot of people are like, "Wait, wait, wait, you're talking about a beautiful thing I do, Radim." Why would you say this thing's for sale? Why be so transactional about this? Help me understand what the point of view and the lens here.

Radim Malinic:

Creativity is this untamed, invisible beast. However, Creativity For Sale is our meaning of how we go about and make living with how our soul is guiding us, where we go with it, and how to make... Literally, that's the case. How to make a living. Creativity For Sale, we can spend a whole podcast hour about this, just about the title alone. How do you say everything in three words? There was many different working titles. But, I believe there's no shame. We can be humble about what we do because lots of people choose Creativity For Sale as their living. They call it something different, but that's what we do. Creativity For Sale stands for being a service industry, actually working for people, providing creativity, providing solution, providing that helping hand, a guiding light, just for others to succeed. Because what we do, essentially, we aid the world with beautiful stuff, with solutions that should make the world a better place in a way. Creativity For Sale, there's no shame. It's how to summarize, how to build a business.

Chris Do:

Well, since you're talking about creativity and sale, then I have to ask this question about, how does one put a price tag or determine the value of creativity? For some people, especially if you talk to creatives, they're going to say, "Well, it's priceless what I do." Then for some maybe more business-oriented, "Well, no, there's a very specific price, I'm willing to pay this," and how do-

Radim Malinic:

I think there's a difference between art and a creative service. When you think about creativity in an exchange commercial value, it's how you deliver a solution for someone. Priceless art, obviously, is something which is of a subjective value, and I wouldn't see that as a Creativity For Sale. I think that's the soul on exchange. Basically, you put yourself out there and you create something, and then the value is in the eye of the beholder. Whereas with a service industry, I think we just create solutions. The more experienced, more grown, more understandable you are, that's where your value is, that's where your value grows. So I think that there's no shame in being on a journey to actually grow, and grow into someone who will actually voice an opinion, and value, and expertise.

Chris Do:

Okay. This is very interesting. We are very much aligned, and I think I know why our friend Rahul has put this together, 'cause it's like, "Wait, you guys definitely have to talk," because you take a very pragmatic approach to this fairly amorphous field that we call creativity. You say there's a difference between art and creativity, or art and design. One is, it's an expression of who we are, that's the art part. Then one is more driven by solutions. I'm just curious, from where you're across the pond, what is the prevailing attitude of designers, and how they feel about whether this is art, or is it in service? Is it commercial art? Is it a service we provide? Or, is there something more there?

Radim Malinic:

I think wherever you are, it's all driven by the ego. If the ego gets in the way, then you'll be asking for more money than you're worth. But I think the creativity, when I thought about it, when I realized that I am very much happy and content with who I am, I'm happy to be the odd one out, I'm happy to be me, then you lose competition. You gain friends and contemporaries because you provide the solutions and the energy, not from yourself out rather than absorbing it. Of course, wherever you are, you'll get a lot of people who will let their ego stroke, and they think their work is amazing. It's universal.

Obviously, if your energy rating is out, then you can command any price. It can work with anyone, you can work... You can be just a universal and versatile part the solutions because you're helping others rather than, "What's in it for me?" I think that's the problem, when people try to see like, "Oh, I've showed up. You've asked me a question to be here. How much are you going to pay me?" That's the wrong question. It's like, "I've showed up. Thanks for asking me a question. What's the opportunity? What can we do? How can I help you?" When you start with these questions, the price always will be right in the end because you align yourself with people, and their philosophies, and their desires, and that's what matters. That's what matters the most.

Chris Do:

Okay. This is something that, at least here in America, the people I've spoken to, they really struggle with this concept. So, let's dive a little deeper. Let's pull this apart a little bit, if you can. So, here we go. People in the creative space, let's just say designers, I think they are very self-centric in their approach. "This is what I should charge. This is what I'm worth, and I'm going to do this." But you're like, "Let's just flip the script a little bit here. Let's try to understand. How can I help you?" You used the term, "What is the opportunity here? We need to line around that."

So how do you teach people who are maybe a little bit late to this party about serving the person in front of them versus, "This is my art, this is my design?" The prevailing attitude, at least in a lot of the younger, less experienced designers I have is. "God, the clients just get in the way of me doing good work." They totally missed the boat there. How do you help them flip their mindset around this? Is there anything actionable you can share with us?

Radim Malinic:

I used to think that creativity was fun until the client came through the door. You have your ambitions, your [inaudible 00:08:44], you are green, you're thinking you know everything, you're excited. You've got the energy, but you haven't got the experience, so you think that the creativity is being spoiled by the client. Whereas, when you've been around the block a few times, you realize, "The design isn't mine. I'm creating service. I'm creating value to someone. I'm here to do the best possible job." Imagine where you're based in LA, you can't stumble across an actor within 30 seconds. They are hired for the job. Their art is their personal brand of creativity, is their Creativity For Sale.

So this is how, when you flick a switch, when you flip the scene, it becomes selfless. When you feel selflessly by creativity, when you want to deliver and actually improve on what's around you and improve on the client situation, it doesn't matter what the creativity looks like you're [inaudible 00:09:40]. When you accept it, that's how the exchange is created. You don't mind the amends, you don't mind the changes, you don't mind the exchanges, you don't mind the delays or whatever, because you're creating it for them. Therefore, your ego... Again, I think ego might be the conversation we talk about quite a lot.

But when someone's really holding on to value of their design, it's their insecurity, because you think, "Oh, I might not get paid. I might not do this. Would this be poor?" It all stems from insecurity, because if we all had unlimited bank accounts, we would have such more fruitful conversation about creativity, and design, and art, and illustration, because it wouldn't matter. It would be like, "Look, I love what you do because I'm comfortable and I'm secure in myself," rather than, "I don't really like it." "Why?" "Because you might be a bit better than me," or, "You might have a better client whose fee might be a bit better."

So it's all about having that inner peace and that inner calm about, "Okay, you know what? I'm happy for everyone to have their success, and it doesn't matter how the work is perceived because somebody somewhere will love it. Someone might not like it, but somebody will love it," and that's the key. It doesn't matter. "Right now, have I done a good job," is the first and important part. When you've ticked that box, then have you put enough of yourself and enough of your skill and talent? Have you made it beautiful? Yes. Does it work? Is it beautiful? Brilliant, let's get you paid. I think that's the change.

Chris Do:

My question for you is this. You said, "I used to think that," clearly you don't think like that anymore. Was there an inciting incident or was there a moment when this came to a head where you're like, "What am I doing here?"

Radim Malinic:

It's growth. When you're young, you think you know better. I remember speaking to someone when I was 20, that person was my age and I said, "Look, I've got it worked out. I'm 21, it's all making sense," and the person says, "Just give it another a few years, maybe 20, maybe more." It's that beautiful thing about personal growth. The older you get, and you must know yourself, the voices slow down, the voice is quieter, the pace slows down. All of a sudden, you're happy not to be running. Because all you want to do when you start, you want to get... "How do I run a marathon every day? I want to run a marathon every day. Okay, let's choose. Let's walk a mile, let's run a mile, let's run five miles. Let's do this."

That's what you want to do because, right now, the world is Disneyland. You can do anything you like. You can have any career, you can be any gender, any color. Not necessarily color, but it's brilliant. The box of sweets from Forrest Gump, it's that. It can sometimes cloud our judgment because, "What can I choose? What can I be?" The older you get, the funnel of options narrows down, you've been more calmer with yourself. You're like, "Okay, I want to do this, and I know what my working philosophy is." Because, I didn't know what my working philosophy was for about 10 years. I know what my aesthetical and egoistical philosophy was, but not necessarily the outward thing.

I want people to receive me how amazing I was as an illustrator, as a designer, as an art director, video director. I wanted to be accepted for that. But as soon as I realized I can actually create something meaningful with my creativity, and be more financially secure, more personally secure, like less anxious and insecure about the creativity, because all you have to do is put something on the internet, and you can either be celebrating or you can be crying because people don't like it. The public arena is dreadful for confidence. It can help you boost, it can shoot you down in the same way.

So, it's just about growth. It's all about growth and understanding, and actually absorbing influences and understanding from different disciplines. I remember when I started looking into more of a behavioral science and psychology, interpersonal growth, that's when I became a better designer because I've actually learned more about myself, rather than just improving my technical skills.

Chris Do:

Do you think then it's inevitable, given your explanation or observation, that we begin this journey full of hubris, of self-importance, and we mature and grow? At some point, we hit this place where, like you said, the voice quiet down a little bit, you check in with yourself, you become much more grounded. I get this very grounding energy, as you speak here. I'm like, "Yeah, I relate to you. I understand." Do we have to go to that arc, or is there some brilliance, some intelligence you can send down the stream so that a 19-year-old version of you could hear and say, "You know what, I'm going to just skip that awful stage. I'm going to go straight to the good stuff?"

Radim Malinic:

Yeah. You see, I interviewed someone the other day and he said he wouldn't change anything. He wanted to go through every bad checkpoint, have not been kneed up, not been knee in mud. He wanted to do that. I was like, "Actually, that makes sense because you have to kiss too many frogs to actually enjoy the end result." You have to do this because we can enlighten people. We can actually... If there's anything... The reason why I'm doing with my two new books is actually saying, "You're not alone. It's not going to be pretty all the time, I'm not ugly all the time, but you're not alone. You're okay."

I'm telling you, the 20-year advantage, it's a bumpy ride, there's a lot of things you can do to help yourself physically, and from automation, and whatever tools we can use. There's things you can do mechanically to help yourself, but the growth from within will take time. I can tell you, and this is the industry that we are in, I can tell you all the right answers so you can actually shortcut those 20 years. But as creatives, if I tell you, "Go left or go right," if the right answer is to go right, everyone's going to go left because somehow we are hardwired and pre-programmed to make those mistakes to learn from them.

But the cue is, and the clue is that if you don't go right and if you go left, if you choose your own [inaudible 00:15:58], if you choose that mistake, I will already tell you that it's okay to recover from it quicker because sometimes our mistakes can take a long time to recover from. Again, that's something that you learn by growing and learning, that it's okay to make mistakes and everyone does it. Everyone makes those.

Chris Do:

Well, I think your answer and your philosophy is actually pretty autobiographical. I did a little research, and correct me if I'm wrong here, okay? You had a pretty strange and remarkable journey. I think it says you were an ice hockey player, a music journalist, and now you're a renowned graphic designer running your own agency, self-taught too I believe. So it's like you're sampling life, and you're describing something of your own journey to it.

Whereas my path in life was, when I was 18 I knew I wanted to be a designer, so then I went to a design school, and then that's what I've been doing for the majority of my adult life. So how has all these things informed your process and your design philosophy? I think we got a hint of it. But now maybe from our context point of view, our audience can start to hear, "Oh, that's why he says those things. You got to experience these things, and you got to feel your way through and there's no shortcut," because that sounds like your story.

Radim Malinic:

What I admire about you, Chris, if you knew at 18 what you wanted to do, you were miles ahead of me because I landed in the UK when I was 20, 21, freshly finished degree in economics because I thought I needed to do something proper with my life because pre-degree, I was very much in music. I was a musician, I was a DJ. Before that, I was an ice hockey player. But all of these things I've started with too long, don't read. I wanted to join my ice hockey team before I could ice skate. I wanted to do it. "We can work it out." I wanted to join a band, I wanted to start a band, but I couldn't play. So it was like, "Okay, let's buy instruments, and let's be crap. Let's be really bad at this."

Then I didn't like my musical friends, so I started DJing. That was the pit of, "okay, I can play any music any day." I was DJing as a teenager. I was DJing five nights a week because no one said I couldn't. It was fun, and I kept showing up, I kept showing up, they kept paying me, kept buying more music, and it was incredible. Mid-90s, late-90s, the best time on the planet earth, absolutely. Because you can do whatever you wanted. The music was amazing. There was MTV. We dressed idiots. I used to wear shorts over my jeans. It was brilliant. But you could do whatever you want, and no one said no.

So I brought that logic to the UK, because I wanted to be closer to the culture and design, but I still came with no plan. I was coming here, I wanted to be a music producer and music journalist, and I totally fell in love with the design scene 'cause it was flooded with people's creativity, raw creativity. Every person I met was either a budding producer, making their own records, releasing their records, making their own stuff, and I was like, "Oh." I knew I wanted to be happy, and people don't really know what to do with you when you say, "I want to be happy." But I was like, "I just want to be calm. I just want to know. I want to wake up. I know that what I'm doing today is going to be full of moments that could fill my soul with good stuff."

Of course, there'll be some battles, there'll be some ups and downs, ebbs and flows. But at the end of the day, we should go back to the baseline and be like, "Okay, this was a good day. We're ready for tomorrow." Creativity gave me that because, as I said earlier, I started in the very beginning, at the very bottom, and just sample, sample, sample, sample, work with people who were not good at this, with people who were very good at this. I'm just picking up all these little interesting bits. I see myself now more as a product maker, not like a digital product maker but more, how do we put things together?

All the century elements of my work, building a publishing company with physical paperbacks that are beautifully made, considered [inaudible 00:20:14], how do we reimagine the thing? It all comes from, especially, music. Because England is known for inventing music genres at lunchtime. They're like, "What should we invent today? This music. No, that music." It's still an amazing place. It's a melting pot of influences. So I think it's just that unregulated creativity. If you want to do it, you should try it. If you want to do this, try it. "Do you want to do mindfulness course for DesignThinkers?" "Yeah, let's do it. Let's try it."

No one says no. The reason why failure exists, because the universe will show you when to stop. It's like, "This doesn't work. Now, let's try something different." But if it keeps working, let's not cut them off. Why not continue? I think that's the beautiful part of this. You can continue and do the things because they grow. Because the things that I've decided to do 10 years ago are now flourishing. The seeds are planted, I'm now harvesting, and that's the best bit because everything takes time. Your Justin Biebers, and whoever's on the YouTube, on TV, on radio, they had career growth. No one just popped up and go, "Ta-da. I'm here now." So it's that open eyes, open ears, open arms, all the influences, inspiration, information coming to me. I just process it, and this is my output now.

Chris Do:

Well, as a person who has a singular love for design, and you said, "Well, I fell in love with the creativity of design," but from the outside looking in, DJing, the DJ was the coolest person. They are the life of the party, quite literally. All right. They make people move, and they made people feel. So my question for you, and I think you're a little bit of the pied piper here, speaking that you're blown the dog whistle for creatives, "Oh, well, if he can fall in love with all these things, I should have all these diverse interests too." So when do you know when it's time to pause the play and the joy to find something like design? Why didn't you stay at being a DJ, or making music, or whatever else you were doing? How did you know when, "You know what? I need to switch gears or switch lanes here?"

Radim Malinic:

I think there's a natural sell by date. Some people are career DJs, some people are career designers, some people are career actors. Some people just have that linear trajectory. Whereas, I was never your main room DJ. I was always a bit of a DJ saboteur, because I was mainly going out to play the music that I liked on vinyl, and that stuff. I think it all sounded good. But when people ask you, "What music is this? Why am I not dancing? I'm really confused," because I was a bit of a saboteur because I was playing eclectic mixture of music. I was not a crowd pleaser. I felt like a bit of an educator, like secret music educator because I played the music I would've wanted to hear if I was to go out.

I've had countless experiences in my life when I would go out and hear someone play something really new, which was not for thousands of people, but only for dozens of people. But it changed my life in a way of, "Oh, I've never heard this music before." Someone put themselves out there to create a mood, to create atmosphere, to make me feel something. Because with everything that we do, we make people feel. Whatever you do, you make people feel something. You can make people mad, you can make people happy, joy, elated. But this is why we have those reactions.

Like a reaction to your partner, someone that you want to be with, "You make me feel something." They haven't done anything necessarily, but you get that vibe back. It's like, "Oh, what?" Because their being is not intentional for you to be like, "Okay, I'm here to exist for Chris Do to fall in love with me." You do your thing, and people fly towards you. It's like a beehive. I think we've got natural pauses and natural phases in our life, because when I do something, I do it a lot and I maximize this. In my career as a designer, I've done 30 years worth of hours in 20 years. I've done 18-hour days as long as I could do, until I was flat on my face, impossibly, absolutely burnout.

But it's about maximizing the time that you've got because our interests change. You know that you were not educated when you were 18. You didn't know that would be your journey. So obviously, we all grow, and understand, and realize what our purpose and true north is. "What can I actually give to the world beyond my skill?" I just feel like creativity, for me, I could design skills. It's my baseline, it's my ability to play instrument. I don't have to look down my fretboard to play on stage, and that's the analogy. I don't have to think, "What do I press? What do I do?" It's more about, "How can I deliver to people? How can I make a connection? How can I make them feel something with what I do?," and how I can always rethink that concept. How can I rethink it that it will be fresh within its own idea and originality.

Chris Do:

Before we went on air, I believe you said it was past someone's bedtime. So, my presumption is you're a parent and you have a little human. Is that correct?

Radim Malinic:

I've got two little humans. Yeah, I've got two little humans. The reason why we scheduled this for this evening is because they don't go to bed easy. I'm sure you know that.

Chris Do:

As a parent, I have to ask this question then. We want to look out for our children. We want them to have more love and less pain in their lives. If one of your children was literally retracing your steps and bouncing from interest to interest, do you just say, "That's part of life's process, I'm not going to interfere. I need to let them explore as I've done?" Or do you whisper in their ear, "Hey, there's a couple of things dad's seeing about you that you might want to try this versus that, or get to this point sooner." I'm just curious, to bring it home.

Radim Malinic:

That's a really good question. I believe in leaving breadcrumbs. They can do whatever. Their lives are slightly differently pointed to a different direction than mine was. In a way, they've got different sport, different activities already in their lives at a young age. I just showed them what I can do. They take a little bit from... To them, it's second nature that we've got a house full of books that I created. So they just play with it. My little boy is just about to turn four in a few weeks, and he just stacks his little car with all of my books, and I just look at him like, "Oh, please don't destroy them."

But it's that moment of, their dad makes books, their dad makes posters, their makes campaigns, packaging. My agency is still going very much strong. We're working with ice cream brands, and all different things in, products and companies. So their life is always like, "Oh, dad did this." They can see that. They can make that connection. Because for me, that connection took 20 plus years, "Oh, people like me can make that?" I didn't know that. I was like, "They have to be special companies, special interest," whatever. Because there was no graphic designer when I was growing up. No one around me was a graphic designer.

Whereas I am showing... They work on my Wacom, they work on my [inaudible 00:27:46], they've got my Apple pencils, and iPads, and they work on Adobe Fresco. To them, it's absolutely unfiltered creativity. What they do with it, I don't know, but it will be definitely answered in the point of their soul. They'll answer in that call. That's what we've been given by my parents, by their parents. This is the ingredients. So I believe that mixture of, "Okay, let's bring in sport, and interest, and art, and creativity," it will create something. I think they'll be complex, interesting, creative people because they're already overproducing. But I introduced them in my second book called Mindful Creative, as a pair of comedians because they're hilarious. They're absolutely brilliant children, and really funny.

Chris Do:

4-year-old, and how old is the other one?

Radim Malinic:

Seven.

Chris Do:

Okay. Well, I can't wait for you to have this experience with your children possibly. I remember when my son was old enough to figure out what I was doing, he'd walk up to me and say, "Dad, I think you should change this. I think this will look better." It's like I got a little mini art director telling me what to do, and I had to smile like, "Okay., Sure buddy. Sure. Let me just work on that right away. Let me make those changes. We'll see." You said that you like to leave breadcrumbs. It's the inference there that, "I'm going to leave clues for you, but it's up to you to either follow the breadcrumbs or not. It's entirely up to you. You could save yourself some pain or you get to enjoy life and do whatever it is you want to do. Is that the case?"

Radim Malinic:

Very much so. Because I listened to some interviews recently and people say, "Look, we did what our parents did. We followed what our parents did. We could see, there was instruments in the house, we played instruments." How many people say, "I grew up in a musical household?" There are most likely musicians. There are always people who actually go, and do, and follow something because you showed them the scene, you set the scene, you showed them the colors, you showed them the windows, showed them the doors and you're like, "Okay, that's what's available. Are you going to have a look?" It's up to them.

Of course, if their natural interest goes somewhere completely different, they might be selling houses, or being in finance. That might be making them happy. I'm a hundred percent sure my kids will choose something that makes them, that's that point of call rather than that's what we feel like we have to do because... Do we really need to do this as a society right now? You could be anything and anyone these days. I'm going back to the original point, you can choose what makes you feel something and something good.

Chris Do:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

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Chris Do:

Welcome back to our conversation. You have a very diverse background. This is a two-parter question. How has your interest in music and journalism, your studies in economics, manifest in the work that you do? The second part too is, how does it manifest itself in how you manage your business? So, let's take it one at a time. Are all these things that you are playing around with, and exploring, and finding your own voice in the world, are they making you a richer designer? How does it manifest itself? Or, does it?

Radim Malinic:

I feel like I have richer conversations with strangers. If a potential prospect comes along from the world of business, music, journalism, it's these ingredients. Again, it's creativity. I might be a historian, but generally it's basically, how do you tell the truth? How do you portray the reality? In business, you put it together and you find yourself having conversations that already have a headstart, something you focus to say, "Hey look, I've got very strong MacBook Pro, what can I do for you?" It is more like, "Hey, do you remember that band from 1995? They only released one album on the Japanese imprint." Somebody will say yes.

I have the most amazing conversations with people around the world because music is connected, our connectivity. You can talk about books, you can talk about case studies, about the Harvard Business School, and stuff. It just opens these doors because the world is more colorful. It naturally translates into business because we have worked with such a diverse range of clients from Harry Potter, to unsigned German American artists, music artists. I treat it, and I direct the studio to treat it in the same equal way. Because you're basically listening to someone's story, you try to formulate it in the most beautiful way, and then actually help them to position it for the outside world to actually be even better.

It's like when you've got ghost writers, and they speak to Keith Richard for two, three weeks, and then they write a section of a book. Someone helps you to narrate it, someone helps you to actually make a sense so the broader world can see it. So that diverse background has been a Godsend. It's been a blessing in every single way because it's just richer conversation with everyone you meet. You don't have to take notes, you just absorb, and open the lids and see, "What's here? What's there? What can I do?" I think what's the most amazing thing about it, because you find lots of people like me. I believe, normally, you find lots of people like that.

Actually being a DesignThinker, having so many conversations with so many people there, I found so many like-minded souls. Even people who were lost and needed extra spice in their life, or people with a lot of spice going, I need a bit more strategy and original, and be more focused. We are unique in every single way, but we are complimentary. We compliment one another in some way. We overlap around the edges, and that's what makes us richer in the makeup, and the creativity and society, all of it.

Chris Do:

It's hard enough to be good at one thing, but it seems like you explored at least three parts of the triangle that I can see in terms of writing. So expressing yourself through words, through music, either through playing or DJing, or putting compositions together. Then lastly, through design, the visual aspect of this, it's quite an amazing triangle. If you're also an actor, I think you would have all corners of this geometric shape. It's pretty awesome. I love how you say there's the things in the overlap, how those three spheres overlap.

But also how, if you have more spheres to play with when you meet a stranger, it's easier for you to find common ground and have conversation where they feel included in it, and it feels like, "Oh, you can speak to that? That's pretty cool, we love that." We know that when we speak about design, and we can make reference to philosophy through cinema, through architecture and photography, that the other person looks at us a little bit differently. You're not this singular narrow focused person with blinders on. There's a lot more to you than this, and now we can have a really robust conversation about what it is that we're trying to do. Back to your original thing it's like, "How can I help you?" I think that's really cool.

Radim Malinic:

If I was to add something too, there was the natural funnels, the road widens and narrows down, if that makes sense. So when you discover something, it's like a, from LA, five, seven lane motorway. But, then you go down to a single track. Because there were times in my life where I couldn't imagine myself being anything different than a musician. I couldn't imagine myself to be anything different than a graphic designer or illustrator. I wanted to be just that one thing, because that's when you really focus on what's in there. You pull it apart from that single narrow track. You're just like, "What's in it? I want to explore everything that's on the walls. I want to explore everything. What's the make-up of the situation?" Then it just naturally just goes, and you add layers.

That's not something you plan for, that's how it happens naturally. I'm talking now about all these different spheres, and influences, and ingredients. There were times where I was just like, "Now, that's just one thing." But with the age and the experience, when you opened up, and obviously you master certain discipline, certain techniques, certain professions, you become comfortable. When I talk about being a musical virtuoso, you can see, "What do I do with the music now? How can I help other people with my music or with my creativity?" That's the exciting part, because it's there. You pick up your little menu of ingredients in your life and go, "Okay, what do we do with this now?," because you know more, and you feel more comfortable with it.

Chris Do:

In terms of how you use that background in economics, how do you run your company? Because I always describe myself to people... I'm the exact marriage of my mom and my dad. My mom is a super creative human being, head in the cloud. My dad's a very pragmatic engineer, background is foot in the earth, in the soil. So I'm a split person where I may not be the most creative person. I may not be the most sophisticated business person. But together, I make a pretty good combination. So there's these two sides in harmony with each other, the business, the logic, and the emotion and art. Here you are, your background, it's in economics ,and now you're running an agency. How do you run your business with these two sides, or more?

Radim Malinic:

There's the left and right brain, isn't it? Obviously, you focus on... You get people who just want to be in Photoshop all day long, or in InDesign, or whatever creative application they want to do, and they believe that's what they need to be doing all day, every day. For me, it was always interesting because I came to UK as a Czech immigrate, so I had to look after myself. I didn't have the financial stability, or the background, or the network around me, so I had to go and sell. I had to actually look after myself and make it work. It was more like a survival instinct. You lock in and you're like, "Okay, I can do this. I can be a designer, I can work with these people. I can do this type of work."

You just grow, you pinpoint all the mistakes, you pinpoint all the situations you need to fix, and you become a bit more of a lean, more better working machine, if that makes sense, in terms of, how do you get your clients? How do you close? How do you negotiate? How do you do this? Again, through time and experience, you learn how to do it better. So my knowledge of business management, economics, it was from a different country, but it was more about the hunter/gatherer instinct. How do you look after yourself? How do you do this? Because, no one else is going to do this for you.

For me, when I look back, and when I look across the board, no one is waiting for anyone's greatness. No one is waiting for the next top designer to come out. No one's saying, "Look, there's a guy called George, he was born over there. We are going to make him the best designer in the world." Unless George wants to be the best designer in the world, that's not going to happen. I found this... I'll keep quoting this book, which I absolutely love, which is called, It's Not How Good You Are, It's How Good You Want to Be, by Paula Arden. That title enough, you don't even need the book.

For me, I can be a mediocre employed designer, and I tried that for a few years and I didn't like it because it just went that way. I just felt like I plateaued really quickly because I was like, "What else is there? I want to do more things. I want to apply for awards." I've gone from a career as an obsessed typographer, designer into full-blown careers as an illustrator in advertising for 10 years. I was doing all sorts of amazing things, just because they let me do it. I showed up, I knocked on the doors and said, "Hey, can I do this for you? Can I do that with you? I love what you do. I want to be part of your narrative." You show up and you ask.

This is the most biggest realization when I talk to students, or up-and-comers, you ask to do this. You can point your direction, your personal universe in a certain place, but you still have to show up and ask. That's what you have to do. So, that's how I found that balancing, and creativity, and business is connected because, overall, you talk about someone else's business, and it's your business.

Chris Do:

Okay. I want to ask you some practical things. Pulling from the book itself, Creativity For Sale. What are some tactical things that someone can do to succeed in this Creativity For Sale world, where people are struggling with finding a client, finding how to talk about the value of the work that they do, pricing, dealing with clients who don't respect their process, and they feel buried in all that stuff. Can you give us maybe your top handful of tips, and maybe we can then dig deeper into some of them?

Radim Malinic:

The cue is in being comfortable with yourself because... I love the quote by Cal Newport, "Be so good that they can't ignore you." I think it goes hand-in-hand with the other quote. You want to be a person of knowledge, you want to work on yourself, you want to show up ready, because lots of people show up, half-cooked, not even part boiled, and that's the nature of creativity. The problem is that, what I call in the book the fuel and the feel, what do you want to do? You will focus on creativity as a designer because... Let's say I want to make posters. I want to make posters every day. That's my fuel. I want to make it. Do I know everything about business, or about other sides of creativity? No, but I want to do that.

Again, you add more skills to it. So I just feel you've got the fuel, the feel, magic formula, and superpower. How does that work? With the fuel and feel, it's like your north star. You can be a slacker, and then you can see a graphic design and you're like, "I want to do this. I want to get up at 6:00 in the morning, and I do it till 10:00 in the evening." That's your north star. That's your feel. The type of design that you choose, that's your feel. What it makes you feel, actually. Does it give you the reward inside?

Then the magic formula is what type of design you're creating. What do you make that is unique, that's just your own. Your superpower is what will get you up at 5:00 in the morning and deliver. Because you will get a few knocks, a few bumps in the road. The superpower, your tenacity or negotiation skills, that's what will make you work harder. That's what will [inaudible 00:43:27]. Sometimes a superpower can knock you over because you can be bloody-minded, and you can work 18 hours a day like I did. But that was my superpower, that made me show up every day. But it was ultimately quite dangerous because it made everything too tuned, up and the volume amplified everything too much.

But finding new clients, I think that people make lots of mistakes with trying to work with everyone. No niche in [inaudible 00:43:59] is the hardest thing you can do because, how do you know if you haven't worked with anyone? How do you know who to niche with, what to do? You can go by your fuel and feel, "What do I want to do? What makes me happy?," rather than people trying to find the market caps and stuff. You want to woo people. How do you get people to fall in love with you? That's the same story.

Because you don't go and say, "Look, I'm the most amazing designer in this world. Come and work with me." You say, "I think what you do, I really like it. I really like what you do. You're very good. But if I could help you in some way, we can even make you better," and you change the narrative. You don't go like, "I'm an able-bodied designer, come and get me. I'm here. The time is ticking." It doesn't work that way. You don't show up to a date and go, "I'm a pretty big deal." It [inaudible 00:44:55].

Chris Do:

Speak for yourself.

Radim Malinic:

I'm not a big deal. It's making sure that you worked on yourself, that you created the right launchpad for people to come to you and say, "You know what? Yes, we can do this together." So definitely, that's where it starts.

Chris Do:

I do want to ask you this question based on this idea of fuel, or your superpower. Sometimes I do get people who ask me this question, which is something like, "I seem to have lost my mojo. How do I become passionate about design again, 'cause I just don't feel the same way I used to?" I have my response, but I'm curious what you say about that, since part of your thing is your north star, the thing that gets you up at 5:00 in the morning. They've lost that. What do they need to do now?

Radim Malinic:

There's actually quite a few different answers to it, when you lose your mojo. Because, sometimes it's just losing your state, losing yourself. You can have a child, you can have other factors outside work that make you not enjoy your work. I've debated that recently. The creative work is not a problem. If you're not enjoying your creative work, it's because something outside of the process is making you not enjoy it. It's like a complaint, it's only nominally about a person you complain about. It's more about yourself. If you don't like something that you normally enjoy, it's because something's not quite right.

We are complex human beings, and sometimes we pretend that we are very simple, and everything should be sunshine and ice cream all day, every day. Of course, it's not, because everything changes. The weather changes, we change. We don't always have the happiest of moods. Our chemical makeup's not always the same. That's one part, because you can give the work to somebody else, and they can think that's the best thing in the world. You can be doing this, and your ego can kick in and go like, "I should be doing better than this. I should be paid more for this. I've not negotiated the right price, or the client negotiated a better fee for themselves. So, I'm not going to do best job on this." That's your ego. There's nothing wrong with the work.

So the mojo, sometimes it's the acceptance that you're not going to have amazing run forever. Sometimes you have to actually be brought down a little bit by the universe and say... You know what? Appreciate it. Because when it's sunny, when everything's working, you should enjoy this. You should actually enjoy every single day, and find that little piece of dopamine in whatever you do, just to make sure that you are actually doing something for yourself. Because, you can easily be stuck on a project for months on end that's got no dopamine. It's a battlefield. You can look at the current state of the world, when people are fighting, it just is not going anywhere. There's nothing there.

So, it's about finding the natural sources of little wins. Celebrating little wins is where... If something goes well, as miniature as it is, as minuscule, celebrate it. Good call. Someone replied to your email? Celebrate it like, "Hey, this is good. Let's put it on a good pile." Because we, as humans, tend to focus on negatives, as you know. Our problem solving nature is because we need something as a fuel, we need a fuel for our minds. Sometimes we're just happy to focus on the negatives, even though we've got a cupboard full of awards and happy wins, and that's how it is.

So mojo is definitely from within. The world often is the same, if that makes sense. The work is often the same. It's just how your ego, and your world, how your state can be. Because I was in a situation when our son was born, nearly four years ago, and I was tired. I was tired. I just published book on branding. It was amazing. It was a bestseller, incredible numbers. It was getting word from everywhere. I didn't enjoy any of it. I was so tired. Everything on paper looked amazing, yet I was like, "I think I want to change of career. I'm not enjoying this. I've got the clients I wanted, I don't enjoy it," because I was tired. A few months later, things changed and I was like, "Oh yeah, I can enjoy it now."

Chris Do:

Well, your answer was much kinder than my answer. I'm going to tell you what I told the person who asked this question, and I'd love to get your honest, raw feedback on it. I think they said, "Hey, I'm not motivated to do design," or whatever they said, "anymore. So, what can you tell me?" I said, "You know? Maybe design is not for you. In a world of people who are super hyper passionate, the people who have their fuel and their superpower, they're going to eat your lunch every single day of the week."

"So I'm not here to make you excited about something you're not excited about. Maybe friends told you you should be a DJ and that's not what you're supposed to be. Or maybe they told you you should have been a journalist. Until you find your thing, the thing you need no more extra motivation... I don't want to sell you motivation. I don't want to convince you to become passionate about something, that's coming from a deep place within you that, when things align, you just know."

Radim Malinic:

I think definitely, there's an extra few layers to that scenario. I think if someone says, "I don't think it's for me," I think that's more than just a few nights of a good sleep and a couple of invoices paid.

Chris Do:

Right. Right.

Radim Malinic:

But, I think there's a natural pivot. I've met so many people in my life who were like, "Oh, I don't like living in this town. I don't want to do this, and I don't want to do that." I'm like, "Well, then change. Do it." Absolutely. There's many things in my life where a number of clients that we had to get rid of because it wasn't working. On paper, it looked amazing, but it wasn't working. You don't want to be battling stuff. I keep repeating myself, but the universe will reward you for making the right choices. If you trip yourself up, then mathematically, two negatives equal a positive. But in life, two negatives equal definitely more than two negatives.

Chris Do:

Right.

Radim Malinic:

If you point yourself in the wrong direction, then that direction will not reward you because you're making the wrong choices. It's like, "What is the good for me?" There's this whole concept, going on my second book called Mindful Creative, about how we need to sometimes stop and reevaluate, actually audit what you've created. Because we go 100 miles an hour every day. We create so much stuff. We try to do all the LinkedIn posts, and social posts, and all the clients, and all the deals, and all the front page decks, and all of that, and try to be parents, and partners, and human beings, and athletes, and all that.

When do you stop? When do you actually look back and say, "Actually, you know what? I don't know where I'm going. It all feels fine, but I just feel like something's telling me I should be doing this. But am I doing it for myself? Am I doing it for myself?" I think that's the key. When do we stop? Because of these books, I have taken out a year of new client work. I've not accepted any client work for more than a year now, only just been with the existing clients, and just make a sense of what I want to do. Do I want to push to the top of the pile, and fight for the place in the spotlight?

Or do you want to serve these very good clients, and do something that makes me happy too, build my natural pivot? Because when you go to these conferences, and then you get a really old designer, "I'm going to stop client work." I'm like, "Wait a minute, everyone here is starting up, and your advice is stopping client work? This doesn't make sense." So I think it's just explaining how we go through these seasons of our careers, and seasons of our lives that change and naturally lend themselves to different things.

Chris Do:

It's one of these rare instances where I go to a conference and I'm so overscheduled that, literally, after our book signing, I had to dash out there and go to the airport to catch my next flight. I didn't get a chance to see you speak, so I'm using this opportunity. What are you speaking about today, or on that day? What are you most passionate about?

Radim Malinic:

I have changed my content, if that makes sense. I've changed my content because, as you know from my LinkedIn, my motto is, "If you look and sound like everybody else, then you think the market is saturated." I've been on the conference stages for the last 10, 11 years, and I feel like I've seen the same talk, especially the mid-ground talk every time. I was like, "I'm not coming home excited, or empowered, or inspired. I want to do something different, in a way. I want to be able to actually go home and say, 'We've seen this talk. We want to refer this to our college, or our uni, or our company. We want something,'" because everyone's really good at creativity now. You don't have to go to any amazing event just to see people presenting really, really inspiring work. It's technically incredible.

But when you speak to people off-stage, everyone breaks the same. People still ask a New Testament. People still ask, "How do I get clients?" Well, we've been getting clients 200 years. We know how to get clients. It's not a secret. We get people going, "Well, how do I burn out? How do I stop burning out?" Well, we've been burning out for hundreds of years. Again, we can't stop this. We just need to share how we communicate, and how we educate ourselves, especially about ourselves. So the reason why I did two books, and we're talking about one of them, we did Creativity For Sale about how to launch a business, with a second book called Mindful Creative about how not to break yourself doing all of this. Because people, we all break the same, and we all break very easily.

The content is about offering people the content from Creativity For Sale, "Okay, you can build yourself as a brand, as someone who stands for something," because if you stand for something, you have people for you and against you. It's build burnout. It's okay to take side, it's okay to take your position, and built on top of it, and actually double down on it and see how it works. If it doesn't, you can change. Very much, if you've seen in the book it's like, if you don't like it, change. Use this nugget and do something different with it. You never know where it's going to take you.

So my main talk is actually Mindful Creative, at the moment, which I'm talking very openly about early panic attacks as a child. I'll talk about therapy. I talk about how we overload ourselves, and how to actually avoid it. Because it doesn't matter if I'm speaking to a mature crowd or a bunch of students, I'm currently doing these talks almost once or twice a week, in person and online, and it resonated with everyone because when you're young, you feel you are alone. When you get old, you think you're still alone, if that makes sense.

Sometimes it's okay to have someone to say, "You know what? Everything's fine. It's shaky. It doesn't always work out." For example, in Toronto I did Mindful Creative including breathing exercises, so teaching people how to do books breathing 4-7-8, body scans. My books contain actually a meditation section, meditation files, just to slowly inform people. I don't want to educate or impose. It's more like, this is the stuff that helped me, and it was the stuff that I was rejecting for a decade, before I said, "You know what? Let's do this. Let's help ourselves. Let's make a sense of it all. Let's go to therapy. Let's actually do this."

So the second book is landing incredibly because no one asked for this book. I'm curating my own content, and I'm investing my time and energy, and my funds, and resources to say, "Look, I believe the universe needs this, and it's proven on data. It's proven on social listening. It's proven on just validating this from conversations with my friends and colleagues, that this is the common stuff." Our creativity goes in different paths. If you want to be 3D designer, or a 2D illustrator, or a programmer, we go in our different corners. But first and foremost, we are humans that break the same, that overwork, that burnout, and that's how we [inaudible 00:57:37]. Even the stuff from Creativity For Sale is quite universal about, "This is how you get your clients. This is how you get your business set up. This is how you look after yourself. This is how you get paid."

So I've got a number of different workshops I'm doing at the moment. I did a color workshop that's other people's creative language, because it all stems down to experience as a branding director, working with clients who don't necessarily work with language like we do as creators. There's lots of creative people who don't necessarily exercise their language as much as we should do. So we only see now, in this last 10 years of the Boomerverse, design a content creator when actually people speak on camera on YouTube. Whereas 20 years ago, no one wanted to speak about anything like, "Here's my work, goodbye." So creating more universally multifaceted people who can deal with everything, break down the process, and metabolize it, and grow better, and grow stronger.

Chris Do:

It sounds to me like what you're interested in, what you're writing about in your other book, Mindful Creative, is about possibly mental health and longevity so that we can have this burst. But, how do you keep that spark going? I think all of us can start something and make a little bit of smoke and a little heat, but it takes a very intentional practice and a discipline, not only to take care of your art, but to take care of your mind and your body, and the three work together. You can't be creative if you're broken physically, if you ache from pain, or if you're massively overweight, if you're obese.

You can't, I don't think, do this long-term if you're a broken human on the inside, where you're suffering from so much imposter syndrome, or perfectionism, or self-doubt and self-criticism. The question I have for you is, when I speak about therapy in Europe, I get some dirty looks, and I get some not so nice comments, "Don't push that American therapy thing on us." I'm like, "Oh, I didn't know. I was being vulnerable. I'm not trying to force my hand here." In the Italian audience that was there, it was like, "Whoa. That was a pretty strong reaction." I'm just curious, from a European's point of view, how is the general design and creative community feel about therapy? Then I have a follow-up question with you.

Radim Malinic:

I'm originally from Czech Republic, so there's a section in the book how everybody around me was normal, everyone was probably normal, everyone was a train wreck. But if you admit it, that you're not okay, it's a dirty look. I grew up with that vision of, therapy was something that people did in movies, "Okay, so there's Robert De Niro shooting a cushion. This is a form of hilarious therapy." It was only when I moved to England, I lived with a family for a bit, where there were people working through some stuff. They were actually working stuff out. I was like, "Okay, I can see firsthand the positive effect of actually working on yourself, working through stuff."

Because I didn't know for 40 years that the first 40 years of my life were not exactly ideal in every single way. I thought it was fine. I was like, "Look, I'm on top of the world. I'm working. I'm earning. I'm relatively successful. But, my relationships are breaking down. I'm not a good husband, I'm not a good father." It's all about working out the things that we can pre-program as children and young adult, have a massive effect on us in our later lives. Because, you can be fighting with clients for almost no reason, "What are we doing?" Whereas if you work on yourself, you are more of a well-chiseled article to actually deal with situations, you can actually listen better, which is the important part.

I remember in your talk, did that thing that Chris Ross says, that you repeat things to people back, you make sure that they are heard. Whereas if you're not comfortable at yourself, you want to be heard. You don't want to listen to anyone, you want everyone to listen to you. So going back to therapy, we've still got a lot of work around here to do, on actually getting people to understand that it's beneficial for everyone. In a book by Don Martel, he says, "When you do things outside your work for yourself, you are actually helping everybody around you to be happier because you are more content within yourself."

So I'm very open in a book about therapy. I'm very open about suggesting therapy, and lots of different ways of how you can work on yourself, because it's the number one thing I've done for myself. All the work I spend in Adobe Creative Cloud making myself a better creative, it was almost to nothing because therapy is what made me a better creative because I've switched my emotional intelligence, I've [inaudible 01:02:30] on how I can understand people. That's what makes us better, rather than still try to find our corner, finding help.

Chris Do:

I appreciate you for saying that. I think in some cultures, especially amongst men in particular, to say that, "I need help," or, "I'm not a hundred percent," is a sign of weakness that we can't even admit. So now, not only do we not get the help that we need or support, but then we are attacking ourselves like, "Why am I so weak?" When in fact, what you were saying, when you were growing up, everybody had all kinds of stuff messed up, but they had to put on this face and pretend like everything was okay. So I want to do my part in this world, because I benefit from therapy myself, to normalize the conversation. I'm not trying to impose anything on anybody.

If part of this conversation resonates with you, please explore it. If it doesn't, don't worry. I'm just telling you what's worked for me, and I'm just glad that you talk about it as well, because we do want to be doing the thing that gives us so much joy for as long as possible. We want to play until the end of time, not play and then have to switch gears because we couldn't make it work. I think part of that is to make sure you're okay, your mental health is really strong. The last follow-up question I have for you is this, what are the top key takeaways you got from seeing a therapist? Just one or two things. I learned so much from my therapist. I feel like it's a masterclass in life, and it was the cheapest education I've ever gotten, and the most powerful

Radim Malinic:

I've done 10 years in therapy and, just classic me I suppose, I've done five or six different things. So, I haven't been with just one therapist. First, I started with cognitive behavioral therapy, because I had some anxieties. I was so burned out, I couldn't even cross the road or bridge. I was so messed up. So, it was what Rich Roll calls, mood follows action. You have to get yourself out of there and actually do it, because if you still sit at home, nothing's going to change. Then the most beneficial for me was marriage counseling. I got to understand that you actually listen to people, you step into that world and actually take an interest, and try to decipher what they're saying rather than what you think you're hearing.

Then I did some anxiety coaching as one of the things I tried. Literally, just purely what I've learned there was, actually do listen. Whatever you do, just step back. Let your intelligence... Because our intelligence tries to butt in all this time, "I've got the answer. I've got the answer. I've got the answer." Imagine yourself, you can't speak until somebody else stops speaking, which was really, really good. One of the therapists said, "People come here because they don't want to feel bad, yet what they need to come here to do is to learn how to feel okay, not feeling okay." It's okay for our project not to go well. It's okay to deal with the situation.

We always feel like, "I've set the momentum, it should work," and it doesn't. It's just, how do you come back from this? The last form of therapy I did was equine therapy. I felt like everything... This is difficult in my life. Chris, this is a therapy session now. Because I felt that all the different knowledge that I picked up from these different sessions, and these different years congregated. They've come together in the last few sessions I had in equine therapy, and what it entails. You stand literally in a paddock with a horse. You've got a horse on the lead, and there's a therapist asking you questions. You project in the sensations and the thoughts, the horse can sense it.

Chris Do:

Wow.

Radim Malinic:

I've learned so much about horses because I'm married to my wife. My wife's got six horses now. She's always had horses in her life. She's the one you want to have on your podcast because she's the clever one. She's got a sixth sense. You learn about how we actually project and radiate our feelings, and how we operate. Because when we go to the stables with our kids, you feel like, "Oh, the horse is actually scared. There's something I can do about this." You learn more about the exchange of the information, of the feelings, of the nonverbal language. How do you help others? That was where I've stopped for now, because I made peace with a certain part of my life. It's just so really berating because now you can never tell your emotional intelligence to have a reaction. Things will still derail you, things will upset you, but it's how quickly you come back, because you understand yourself, how you work. We can talk about takeaways from therapy for ages.

Chris Do:

Okay, let me just clarify something here. This last type of therapy, did you say equestrian therapy? Is that the word? Or, you said something else.

Radim Malinic:

Equine, equestrian. Equine, equestrian, yes.

Chris Do:

Based on horses, right? Equine. Okay.

Radim Malinic:

I believe in America you use it, for example, with the veterans. When you've got real people with PTSD, then they actually go and work with horses. My wife, she does lots of things, but she's actually a qualified therapist. It's incredible because you're making a difference in people's lives because you mend them. You get a broken article, and you just send them back into world understanding more about themselves, which helps everyone.

Chris Do:

So the therapy is done with a horse, and you're saying the horse can sense your energy, your emotions, it can feel what you're feeling, right?

Radim Malinic:

Mm-hmm.

Chris Do:

This is incredible to me because there's this part that we think like, "Okay, we've seen it all. We've done it all," so we only understand what our eyes and our mind can process. But through science we realize, visible light rays, what humans can see, is actually a very small part of the spectrum of light. So I've always felt this way, when I was younger and I was a little bit scared of dogs and cats, like strays, I thought, "Think positive thoughts, think positive thoughts. Don't be scared." I would see, not a one-to-one correlation, but I'm like, "Oh, I think there's something here, that animals can see things, just the color of our mood, and they can see that. Just as you and I can see green, red or purple, they can see this.

So it's fascinating to me they had that horse as part of the therapy, and it's really neat. It's so awesome to hear that you've been doing this for 10 years, that you've explored, consistent with your narrative, many different types. But all of this, for me to say, you're a very eloquent, well-spoken, well-read person, very calm and grounded, and I think you've done a lot of work on yourself to know thyself. It's no wonder that you've been able to be such a prolific writer. I've really enjoyed our conversation today. I want to encourage every single person here, that if you've gotten value from today, go check out one of the many books that Radim has written. He's mentioned a couple, but you've written the Book of Ideas, the Book of Branding, which was really well-received, the book that I was holding up, Creativity For Sale, and the latest one, I believe, is the Mindful Creative. Did I miss any books in there?

Radim Malinic:

Yeah, there's six of them in total. There's a mindfulness journal, which was book number four, and Book of Ideas Volume 1 and 2.

Chris Do:

Oh, there's two volumes.

Radim Malinic:

There's two volumes. They go from very colorful, very picturesque, full of illustrations and work examples, all the way to just illustrations and words. Because if someone finds value from this, it's just, don't wait till it's too late. We've got this phrase in the book says, "If you're thirsty, you're already dehydrated. If you need help with your mental health, you're already in trouble." So anchor yourself so you don't drift away too far from the shore, because we are so good at telling ourselves we're not in trouble. If you knew you were burning out, you would stop. Do we? No, and that's the problem. So just try to work on yourself because you will get so many rewards beyond just the mechanical and technical knowledge. That's where the magic really happens, because you can connect with people in so many different ways, and the work becomes much, much easier to do.

Chris Do:

Well, he's not just a nice hockey player, not just a guy who plays in a death metal band, or an indie DJ, the music journalist, a prolific writer, a designer, an entrepreneur, a public speaker, he's a real human being with real human needs, and just real relatable. Thank you very much for being part of our podcast today.

Radim Malinic:

Thanks for having me, Chris. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

Chris Do:

If people want to find out more about you, where should we send them?

Radim Malinic:

I think we'll send them to my website, radimmalinic.co.uk. That's the links to everywhere. If you follow me on social, I've got far too many websites, far too many projects, far too many books. But, I can be also found on Instagram. So if you type Radim into Google, I'll pretty much come up as the first result.

Chris Do:

Wonderful. I was expecting nothing less from you, a person who has multiple websites in diverse interests still to this day. In 30 or 40 years, I hope they multiply over time. There's even more stuff for us to dig up. Thanks so much, again.

Radim Malinic:

Thank you very much for having me. Thank you, Chris. Hi, this is Radim Malinic, and you're listening to The Futur.

Stewart Schuster:

Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app, and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do, and produced by me, Stewart Schuster. Thank you to Anthony Barro for editing and mixing this episode. And, thank you to Adam Sanborne for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better.

Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission, and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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