Creating Community in Design - With Anna Dower and Emma Kate

Anna Dower: Ask the question. If you don't ask the question, you don't get. And the worst that can happen is a no. And then you just move on. Chris Do: All right. For today's podcast, we have Anna and Emma. This is an unusual podcast because it's very rare that I actually have more than one person on two different feeds. So we're going to work through this audience rather than me tell you about who they are. And there's something that I'm involved in. We'll talk about a little bit later. Why don't you guys introduce yourself first? Like, why don't Emma, you introduce yourself and then we'll switch over to Anna. Emma Kate: Cool. Thank you. Well, hi, everyone. I'm Emma Kate. I'm a graphic designer turned web designer, and I mentor other designers into how to build a web design business. And together with Anna Dower, I have the Designer Boss Summit and the upcoming Design Camp. [00:01:00] Anna Dower: And I'm Anna Dower. I am also a mentor for graphic designers. I'm what they call a seasoned designer. I've been a designer for over 25 years now. I've been running my own business for 15 years. I basically mentored Designers to help them work smarter in their businesses. Emma and I have created the designer boss summit together, and we're very lucky to have Chris join us at design camp. Chris Do: Yay. Yay. And I'm glad to participate. So what's interesting is we're kind of like workshopping ideas that we can talk about that I think would be of interest or a broader audience. It's not that often that we have female entrepreneurs, but two female entrepreneurs coming together to do a summit. I feel like I'm, I'm sorry if I'm saying things that might hurt people's feelings. It's kind of a boys club. So let's talk about the uniqueness and your perspective and why you created this summit to begin with. Anna Dower: Well, Emma and I worked together for [00:02:00] a little bit. I was her mentor and we had a really good connection. And when the pandemic hit in 2020, we kind of saw the design community freaking out. There was a whole sense of the unknown. Are we going to survive this? And Emma and I had been playing with the idea of a summit. And when we started to see everyone freaking out, we were like, we need to do this now. And we actually made it happen super quickly. And I think it's really good that we didn't overthink it. Because if we sat in it for a while and thought about it, like all the moving pieces, we would have talked ourselves out of it. But, um, we just made it happen really quickly. And the response was amazing. And that kind of just kept propelling us to the next one and the next one and the next one. And that's how it started. And you know, we thought we can list build. This would be great for list building for our own businesses. [00:03:00] And we didn't really think about it any more than that at that point. Emma Kate: Yeah, it was really surprising when it happened, just the amount of like the community and the amount of people who were just like, Oh, this is so awesome. And all the connection. I wish I had have had this when I first started my business to have. All these designers that you could connect with, all these awesome talks and people they could learn from for free as well. Obviously there's an upgrade option, but 90 percent of what you get at the summit is completely free. So it was a really good sort of entry point for newer designers as well and people all around the world. So it was pretty surprising. And yeah, we thought list building, build authority, you know, like get our name out there a bit more. We weren't doing it. We're like, Oh, if we earn like 5, 000, that'd be awesome. You know, but we were just blown away. Initially we're like, Oh, wow, we're not expecting to earn that much. And so it sort of got bigger and better every time. Chris Do: There are a lot of [00:04:00] conferences, fewer summits, and I'm not sure what the difference is between one and the other, but I hear conferences and there are festivals too. And I'm like, okay, what are all the differences? So for someone who doesn't know what Designer Boss Summit is. How would you explain it to them? What makes it different and unique? Let's start there. Emma Kate: So the designer boss summit, essentially our summit's all online. Obviously it's not a, you need to rock up in person as much as that would be lovely. One of the best things about this summit is the people we get from all around the world. Last time we had, was it like 130 countries or something like there was people from everywhere and it was really amazing to have communities from everywhere all around the world. And so. The summit, I guess it technically would be a conference. I don't really know what the difference is, but it's where people can come. You watch talks from all the speakers. There's a live Q and a with all of the speakers as well. So you get the chance to ask them questions or just like [00:05:00] listen to other people's questions as well. There's the Facebook group where you can connect with other designers. There's lots of competition and prizes and Facebook lives. There's like lots of stuff going on, lots of, um. community and different fun things. This time we're having a scavenger hunt as part of the design camp. So there'll be like a digital scavenger hunt. There's all that kind of stuff going on. Chris Do: Okay. So there's some differences here already. It's online. And because it's online, there are some disadvantages, but a lot of advantages you can attend from anywhere in the world. It's friendly for people who are on a budget, especially because as you explained before, for most of it, it's free. Some of it is. Maybe you need to explain that so that people can fully understand this because everybody's little cautious like free. Can it be good if it's free? Can you address that? Anna Dower: You basically sign up to get your free ticket. The free ticket will get you most presentations. So design camp is going to be four days. This is the first time we've done it over four days before this [00:06:00] time we've done it over three days. And basically you get to see 90. percent of the presentations for free. And there's some huge names for free. Like we've got Alan Peters for free. We've got Christy Campbell for free. Like they're huge names. They're people that you can learn so much from. And then we have the option to upgrade to the Boss Bundle. And basically, Every speaker that is in the summit has given us a free, not a free, a resource for designers, a resource that they sell on their own website. And basically when you buy the Boss Bundle you're getting all of those resources for a much lower price than you would if you went and bought them individually. And this time when you upgrade to the Boss Bundle you get to attend a live workshop with Christo and a live workshop with Paula [00:07:00] Scher and a live panel with Christy Campbell and James Barnard. And the price of the Boss Bundle is really low. It's 88 Australian dollars which turns out to be like 50 US dollars. So it's really affordable. It allows A lot of designers access to knowledge that they may not be able to afford and go buy a 3, 000 e course. They're getting access to so much for such a little price, basically. Chris Do: Yeah, okay. I'm going to nerd out with you a little bit on the business component of it. It seems like we're in the season where I'm interviewing people who are just kicking major butt and they explain to me their big concept of their business model. So if you don't mind, I'd like to go there. So just a quick summary though, for most people that want to attend and don't want any of the bonuses or the interactive stuff that you're talking about, then they just watch it for free and they just need to register to get a ticket. Cool. [00:08:00] Not a big deal for those. And it just, it feels like a bargain. 88 Australian dollars with the exchange rate if you're in America is not that much. Like you said, it's about 50 US. Then you get some digital products that are available through the bundle. And you get access to certain talks or workshops. That seems like a bargain and a half. Why did you decide to position it this way? When you could have gone all free, sponsored paid, or some other pay to play model, or something like that, what was the decision making process like arrived at this price point? Anna Dower: Well, like we mentioned, when we started this, it wasn't about money. It was like money is a bonus. Basically. And then as time went on, we were like, Oh, we're making money from this. We could make more. And honestly, but that being Chris Do: said, Anna Dower: but honestly, our last summit just [00:09:00] kind of blew our mind money wise. And I will let Emma talk about. numbers and things because that's her thing. But pretty much the whole time we were just like, holy crap, what have we done? What have we done? It kind of like just blew up to a point where we were absolutely freaking out, but we wanted to keep it that lower price. We want it to be a no brainer. Our last summit, we had 12 and a half thousand people sign up for a free ticket. Now I would say not even half of them upgraded. But we decided that with this next summit, by adding those VIP workshops, even if we got half the amount of people to convert to buy the bundle, we would double what we made last time. And we want to keep it that low price so it's accessible. [00:10:00] Because that's why we started it to begin with, you know. And so that it's a total no brainer. Like, who wouldn't want to see Chris Doe live for 50 US dollars? I Chris Do: mean, Anna Dower: it's a Chris Do: bargain. Come on, guys. On a scale that you can't even think about. Anna Dower: Yeah, I know. Like, It is a no brainer and we have that huge audience now and we're aiming to move the needle slightly. That's all we want to do. Chris Do: Okay. Before I pull Emma into this talk about numbers and cents and all that stuff, what are your target goals for this year? How many people you think are going to register for the free portion and how many will you think will convert into upgrading? Anna Dower: I would love to hit the same amount of free ticket holders, like the same amount of ticket holders, 12 and a half thousand, but I would like to see 50 percent of them convert. Chris Do: Okay. Anna Dower: And we have a pretty high conversion rate [00:11:00] as it is, but yeah, that's the dream. Chris Do: It's a good dream. I think it's a very real dream. Let's talk on numbers here. So you said like last year, your minds are blown. Like, wow, can this happen? Well, what kind of numbers are we talking about? Emma Kate: So last year we all had over 2, 000 orders, 2, 186 orders. And so we have, obviously the bundle price of like 88 is what people get offered for 30 minutes once they get their free ticket. So that's like the cheapest you're going to get it. And then it goes up and the price sort of varies as the summit goes on, obviously the longer you wait, the longer. The higher the price is sort of maxes out at just over 200 Australian dollars. So it's not crazy, but it's incentive to get on it right away. And then we have little sort of like order bumps and stuff to get like previous summit replay packs and stuff. So there's a little bit of that in there of like lower price point stuff. But essentially what we did [00:12:00] last time is we had 23 speakers and our gross sales were over 213, 000 Australian dollars. So I guess that's about a hundred and sixty US maybe. And we ended up paying out to affiliates like we had our highest, cause all speakers can get affiliate cash as well for all the people that they send to the summit. So there's a lot of, obviously that's the incentive for speakers to be a part of it cause they're giving all of this away for free. So it's really nice of us to be able to pay them and give them some money for their time. Um, and our biggest affiliate last time and 13, 000 Australian dollars. So that was just from sharing it on, you know, Tik TOK, Instagram, that kind of thing. So, and that was James Barnard and he wanted me to mention him in this Chris Do: podcast. We all know who it was, but I was like, are they going to say his name? And then boom, it just happened. Okay. Why did you mention his name? Anna Dower: He said, give me a shout out. [00:13:00] So James Barnard, I think he did one Instagram reel and he made. 13, 000. He's very good at it. Chris Do: He is freaking good. I hate him. Yeah. Anna Dower: He's been a speaker with us since the beginning. Like he has been there with us since we were not making big dollars. We didn't have a huge audience and yeah, it's been awesome that he stuck with us through all of that. Chris Do: Okay, James is like a British transplant to Australia, right? Emma Kate: Yeah, we claim him now. Chris Do: I want to commend you for a couple different things. One is your ability to mobilize and get something up and running. And we wouldn't be talking today if the first one was a failure. So, yeah. Every time you learn something, you grow and you do that. And it's such an important part of the entrepreneurial journey for folks to say, you know, everybody's sitting on a multimillion dollar idea, but that's all they do. They just sit on it. They don't take any action because they're afraid. Like, what if I fail? What if it doesn't work out exactly the way it's supposed to? And here's a spoiler alert. It never [00:14:00] works out the way it's supposed to. Sometimes it's better. And sometimes it's like you got to take a couple of bumps to figure it out. The next thing I just want to talk about is the fact that you have designed a business model that seems to be very equitable for all parties involved. Number one, larger design community, wherever you are in the whole world, you can eat 90 percent of the meal and not have to pay anything. That's freaking awesome. And number two is that you say, well, the speakers are coming up and speaking for free, but we got to figure out a way to let them participate in some of our profit. And I think that's a really awesome thing. So if we win, you win. And the more you help us win, you win more. And one of the biggest bones of contention that I have with creative summits or conferences. Is they pay next to nothing? And I keep thinking, how do we as leaders in the design community talk about a sustainable practice when we're basically getting everyone to bleed for free? I don't understand that. So I like that when [00:15:00] people such as yourselves think about. How do we make this work for everybody? And we have to eat too. That's the other thing. A lot of these things are volunteer organizations and no one's eating. And it's like, why are we doing this? This seems to be perpetuating this idea that you have to be a starving artist. And that's the model I want to break. So kudos to both of you for doing this. I'm just curious though. Was there anything in your stories individually or. together where you thought, Hey, there are rules and we have to meet this for us to make this make sense. Otherwise there's no point to do this. Was there any kind of clear defining moment in either of your stories or how it overlaps that that became very clear? Anna Dower: I honestly feel like we created our own rules from day one. And I think there's kind of comfort in doing it together. It's like when you do it alone. The fear of failure is so much greater but when you're doing it together we can kind of bounce ideas off each other [00:16:00] and is this a good idea? I tend to get excited by things and Emma's like, well are we going to make money by doing that? And it's kind of good to have that other person to bounce off. I feel like we have learned something every single summit. This is our ninth summit and we're still learning things and changing things, but I don't feel like we ever felt like we had to adhere to any rules. I mean, initially we were like, we want it to be about showcasing women in design, And even still, I would say 70 to 80 percent of our speakers are women. But I think, I think over time we've included more men in the speakers line up. I don't feel like we, there were any rules. Do you, Ham? Chris Do: Before Emma jumps back in, Anna, I have to ask you this question. Okay. There's this decision initially to feature more women. Tell me about why that's [00:17:00] important to you and what that meant. Anna Dower: It's important to me because as a mentor for other graphic designers, I work with all women and women struggle to show up. They just do. They are frozen with imposter syndrome. They question everything they do and I feel like men don't do that as much. I feel like men are already ahead of the curve, and women need that help more than men in the industry. And there are a lot of huge male design influencers out there, with hundreds of thousands of followers, who have no problem with imposter syndrome, who have the confidence that they can Slash ego to put themselves out there. And I feel like women need help. They need to see other women kicking ass [00:18:00] in the design industry. Other women who are normal that aren't perfect. I think women fall into the trap of, I have to look a certain way. I have to act a certain way. I need to do all of these things in order to be successful, to reach those milestones of X amount of followers or X amount of dollars. And you don't. And I really want women in design to see they don't need to do that. They just need to show up and be themselves. So that's why it's important to me. And I, when we convinced Paula Sher to be part of our summit, that kind of was like the cherry on top for me. Like she is the mother of design and I feel like having her be a part of our summit will hopefully let a lot of women's. See that it's not just a boy's club. You can be in it too and do it your way. You don't have to do it the same way they're doing it. Chris Do: Yeah. You got Khaleesi.[00:19:00] And no baby dragons are killed. So this is pretty amazing. Okay. So you mentioned things about like representation, allowing people to see different versions of successful women that don't fit any particular mold that the letting go of. That perfection concept and asking people like, it's okay just to be yourself. And I'd like to talk about that a little bit more, but I'm going to put a pin on that to throw this over to Emma and see if you wanted to add something. Cause I had cut you off right before you were about to say something. Emma Kate: It's got to feel good. And one of the sort of calls we've made over the years and working with people is like, we've got to feel like the speakers are a good fit and we like their vibe. There have been some speakers in the past who have just let us down or being a bit difficult to work with that kind of thing, or they just, I don't know, they've just got to gel. We just have to trust that intuition a little bit. And so over the years, we just [00:20:00] really like, We have kind of made a veto call if one of us wants someone, we're like, you know what, I just don't think they're a good fit for our model because the whole, like we've spoken about, the whole model of this summit is everyone should win. People that attend should get Really good value. The speakers should get really good value and we should get good value as well as the summit hosts. So if we feel like a speaker is not going to contribute, maybe they're not going to share as much as the other speakers. And therefore they're kind of winning off everyone, all the other speakers, but not. Doing their part, then we don't want them to be part of our sort of community. It's all about collaborating, not competition. And so we need sort of people that are going to fit that model. So that's one thing that we've been pretty good at in the last sort of few, maybe like the last half of the summits is being really picky about the people that we have jump on board. Chris Do: You've mentioned it a couple of times and I'm going to ask you to spill the tea right now. [00:21:00] Anna Dower: So you're like, oh, this Chris Do: speaker sucks. Wrong vibe. Uh, not there for the community, poor values or whatever it is. I'm not asking you to name names, James Bernard. I mean, anybody that you want to think about, can you describe their behavior or their attitude, their mindset? So that if we're thinking to ourselves, I don't want to be that person. What are kinds of things that pop to your mind? If you want to drop names, that's your reputation. That's fine by me, but you don't need to. I'm just talking about. The types of things that they do that kind of little ick. Emma Kate: Yeah, sure. Well, we won't be dropping names. We take the high road. They would know who they are because they don't really get invited back. So they, and not all of them. So don't anyone go through past summits and think, oh, that person wasn't invited back. They're bad. That's not necessarily it. Oh, Chris Do: I'm building a profile right now. I'm going to figure it out. No, Emma Kate: there's definitely not it. But there are some bigger names that. Mostly it's not, it's about [00:22:00] not sharing. We really stipulate, like if you want to be part of this summit, these are your, what you have to do. And you have to at least do one email blast. You have to do one post you have to do. So it's fair. Otherwise you can just like right off the back of everyone else. So we have that. It's all stipulated. People have to like tick a box and like say they. Confirm. And yet Anna and I will be chasing them being like, we noticed you haven't shared yet, you know, and it's still, it gets to the final day of the summit. They haven't shared. And it's like, well, okay. So that's one thing. Another one is. Gathering content from them as well. There are just some speakers that just nail it. We have it really set up really well with content snare. It should be really easy for everyone to add their stuff. And some speakers just need a lot of handholding and a lot of follow up, a lot of pushing, and it just turns into not being worth our while. So that's a tip. If you know, you ever get an opportunity to be part of something, just make it really easy for the people organizing it. They don't want to be chasing you up. Like we're all, we're all adults here. [00:23:00] You just. Meet the deadlines. Chris Do: Phil's so called out right now. I'm like, I'm sorry. I promise I'll send it tomorrow. Anything else? Anna Dower: There's been people in the past who kind of didn't believe in our model of earning via affiliates and. asked for a set fee, we agreed to a set fee, but then like within the first week they exceeded the set fee in affiliate earnings, and then they were kind of like, oh I want to change the deal now, I don't want the set fee, I want to just make affiliate earnings, and that was maybe because they underestimated us. But yeah, we're flexible. We were like, yeah, okay, we can switch it to affiliate earnings if that's what you want instead. But yeah, there's been people who have maybe underestimated our conversion rates. And Chris Do: yeah, I was hoping for something a little juicier than this. You're saying basically you didn't fulfill your end of the [00:24:00] bargain. And when it came to creating your content, you made us chase you a little bit more than we needed to. Ladies, is there anything more than this or is that what we need to look out for? Anna Dower: Oh, there was a juicy one actually. Now come on, let's go. When someone didn't fulfill their end of the deal, they didn't show up for the live Q& A when they had already agreed to the time and then it turned into a massive dispute and this person just kind of Light was talking badly about us publicly. And that was a downer. That was the first time we'd ever felt that. And we were like, Oh man, now we really need to be choosy about who we pick. Chris Do: That sounds like general flakiness. And we put it all in one category. Don't be a flake. Fulfill your commitments, make your slides or get it all ready and show up when you're supposed to show up. Which is a hard thing for a lot of creative people. It's like flakiness is their middle name. Okay. We get that part. So [00:25:00] we didn't mention any specific names, but based on the profile that you said, I have some ideas on who it might be now. I think their name might Ryan with teams Tarnard, but we won't. Exactly say who it might be. We'll just put it out there. Anna Dower: I tell you what, James Barnard is an A plus speaker. Delivers on time. Chris Do: Don't say that. Anna Dower: He goes above and beyond. No. Yes. Yeah. Chris Do: God, I hate him. Okay. So, let's dispel one stereotype here because I'm at a couple events and backstage, I must be the gossipy trash talking person like, Oh, that presentation sucked. Did you see their slide? Look at that point size and look at how they're oblivious to the crowd. And I can't believe they're yelling at this person and doing that. And what happened to this? Or they're running over, they're running under, I guess. Maybe boys talk a bit more trash. We'll be a little bit more gossipy in the back there.[00:26:00] I don't know. Yeah, you should see my note sheet for like an event that I go to. I'm like, never, not that person. No, you're dead to me. Wow, okay. Yours is like, don't be flaky. Anna Dower: Or maybe we do it behind closed doors. Emma Kate: Well, if anyone got a hold of Anna in my private conversations, it would be a lot more like Chris Do: that. All right, all right. We'll keep this one pro. Okay, so now we kind of know if you agree, commit, show up, do the work, don't be flaky, and everything's going to work out just fine. The Futur: It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Chris Do: Want to make the most of the opportunities coming your way this year? I'd like to invite you to join me inside the Future Pro membership, your ace in the hole for 2024. With expert guidance and a supportive community, the Future Pro membership was created as your ultimate business lifeline. And we have years of testimonials from members to [00:27:00] prove it. Check it out at thefuture. com slash pro. The Futur: And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation. Chris Do: I'm curious, since her name has been mentioned more than once here, Paula Sher is perhaps the most famous female designer in the world. She's had a TV show on her, and she is a principal or partner at Pentagram, and she is a much sought after speaker. Very difficult to get a hold of. How did you get her degree? Anna Dower: Well, I watched that episode of Abstract on Netflix about Paula and I messaged Emma and I was like, we need Paula Scher and she was like, okay, go for it. And I actually Googled what is Paula Scher's email address and it came up and then I sent an email. No response. I sent another email. And her assistant [00:28:00] replied and said, Paula wants to talk to you. And we were like, what? And we were like, okay, book it in. We booked it in. Honestly, it got rescheduled twice. I think the call and we were like, I don't know if it's going to happen, you know? And meanwhile, I'd been emailing her assistant really Telling her about how, whereabout women and design spotlighting them, letting them see that you can succeed in this industry, all that kind of stuff, giving them my TED talk on it. And the third time we jumped on Zoom. And we were talking to Paula Scherrer in her kitchen, and it was just like, what? And she was so humble and lovely. And I kind of gave her the spiel about, we would love for you to be a part of [00:29:00] this. And she was just, she just said to her assistant, Olivia, can I do it on this date? And she was like, yep. And she was like, okay, yes, I'll do it. Wow. And we kind of jumped off the call and just jumped around and screamed a bit. And yeah, it was amazing. And she said, yes. And there was no like money negotiation, which I found amazing. Like we, of course, offered her money and she accepted it, but there was no like back and forth. But I feel like, yeah, it was kind of like a dream. It just went really well. Chris Do: What is the lesson that you can peel away from this that could be broadly applicable to someone in their creative pursuits? Maybe they're not trying to book Paula Cher for their summit, but it's just about a thing that you think might not be possible, but pursue in a particular way. Anna Dower: [00:30:00] Ask the question. And that's the same with you, Chris, because. You know, in our last summit, Liz Mosley was a speaker and she was talking about her rejection challenge and it was about you. And, um, you know, I was talking to Liz after the summit and I was like, I'm going to ask Christo and she was like, do it. What's the worst that could happen? He could say, no, that's it. And then same thing happened when we emailed you and you replied, we freaked out, but ask the question. If you don't ask the question, you don't get, and the worst that can happen is a no. And then you just move on. And we're stoked. We're talking to you on your podcast. Chris Do: Yeah, I should have caused emotional damage to you and just said, no, what are you guys thinking? I'm gonna delete and block you. So a year later, you can tell me the story about how you had to go to therapy and get it resolved. Make a better story. Anna Dower: No, I like this story. This [00:31:00] story is good, but you know, I feel like we paid our dues. I knew that you were a numbers man. And when I emailed you, I made sure I included numbers and we couldn't have spoken to you five summits ago. It's only now in our journey that we could speak to you and yeah, it paid off. Definitely. Chris Do: Emma, did you want to say something? Emma Kate: I was just going to say like, you've been on our sort of wish list for probably since summit number two or three, but it's just like, nah, we're not ready. Like we're not at that point. Like we probably could have asked and just got to know that would have been fine, but we knew we didn't have the backing behind us and stuff. And then when the last summit in February just went off the hook, we're like, okay, we can do this now. Chris Do: I'd like to point out a couple of things about what I'm hearing here, just to like, read between the lines to, to magnify some of the things I'm hearing. Number one is that sometimes we have such big ambitious dreams, but we're not ready and we ask too early. And that could be [00:32:00] as big of a mistake as not asking at all. Because there are people who are like, yeah, Chris, I'm three podcasting, can I have you as a guest? I'm like, how about you do like 50 and then, you know, Work out the kinks in the system. Like, I don't want to be number four. That doesn't make sense to me. Right? So there's that. And there's this thing that in many instances, for people you're targeting, you do your homework, you do your research, you figure out like, what does each person want? And it's going to be different for each person. And again, I want to commend you for this because I do in my inbox, get all these requests and it's vague generic language. And most times I didn't even bother reading. I just hit delete. Because there could have been a beautiful offer there, but I couldn't see it. Now you're not respecting my time. So let's get the details out. And it's unfortunate that we live in such a society that people are kind of using deliberately vague language to get you on the phone with them so that they can do a pitch sale thing that's not really good for anybody. And as such, I have to be very protective of my time. What is the collaboration partnership that you're talking about?[00:33:00] Oh, no, you want us to hire you. I say, no, goodbye. Bye. So you guys came in, you did your homework, you're like, here's something that, if this interests you, let's elevate this to the next level and let's have a conversation if it's appropriate. And I like that. It's like, you're a professional and you're going to treat people the right way so that they can make a decision. Otherwise, you get stuck in that weird place, like, I wonder why that person didn't respond. I wonder what's happening. It's because your offer stinks. Be clear, and it seems like in many cases, clearly, because you're on, you said number nine now? Yes. You've been very clear at least eight times before this. So that's pretty awesome. Are there any other big lessons that you've learned that you wish you knew summit one, that you only learned through the scars and cuts that you've acquired through eight of these? Emma Kate: I definitely have a big one. The first summit, because we just like did it so quickly. I thought I'll just like [00:34:00] request all the stuff we need via email from speakers. You know, that was just a nightmare because we had over 20 speakers and then I was having to chase them up and like all that back and forth. And one of our speakers for that summit was actually James Rose from Content Snare, who founded Content Snare. And he's like, Content Snare would be perfect for this. And I'd used it in the past for like my design business, but not for the speakers for the summit. So. Since Summit 2, we use Content Snare and oh, it's just like total game changer for that kind of stuff, automated, all that kind of thing. So the amount of hours, like hours and hours and hours of follow up and stress and spreadsheets to figure out what content I'd got and which speakers I was waiting on, that was a big thing from Summit number one, which I wish I had have done. Chris Do: Anna, did you have one? Anna Dower: Yeah, I mean, I feel like the first seven summits were all pretty cookie cutter, like there were the same promo images. I feel like I got lazy, honestly, like not [00:35:00] lazy, but I was kind of like in my little box, like design wise. And then in February, we decided to give the summit a theme and that was kind of like a game changer. Bye. In February, it was a slumber party, Y2K party, which meant speakers wrapped up in their pyjamas and all of our attendees were taking selfies in pyjamas and it added a whole different level of fun and it kind of blew up our Instagram, like it just, it just blew it up. went nuts. And this summit is Design Camp, which has a really fun theme as well, like around, sitting around the campfire, toasting s'mores and your camp cup. And client horror stories. But by just adding like, we're designers for God's sake, of course there should be a theme or, um, that kind of fun. fun, quirky element to it. And it just has like, [00:36:00] given it new life, I think. And I get excited about like, what's the next theme going to be? How can we make it more interactive? How can we get people taking photos of themselves and sharing and getting into the spirit? Like, one person has already sent me an email saying, um, I've bought a s'mores kit for the summit so I can make s'mores while I'm watching and like having that kind of element to it has taken it to a new level and I feel like a bit of a dud for not thinking of it sooner. But I think we get into our rut, like this is working so why would I change it? But it kind of just took it to a whole new level. Having that theme and that fun and designing for designers is really hard. It's like, so stressful for me and taking that risk. I feel like it's paying off. Chris Do: There's the gentleman, you might know who he is. His name on Instagram is Elliot is a cool guy. [00:37:00] Do you know him? Anna Dower: No, I don't think I do. I think he's Chris Do: Australian. But he deliberately makes bad designs so he can get away with whatever he does. Anna Dower: Wow! Chris Do: Yeah, he does a lot of designer memes, you know? Like, the last one I read from him, it's pretty funny, he is, All graphic designers are secretly interior designers who want to be graphic designers. Like, what? Yeah. He goes, look at my couch, look at my wall. I'm trying to be an interior designer, but I'm failing. And I'm trying to put graphic prints on it. And there's some truth to that. And he's funny. There's a lot of sarcasm there. So maybe the way you get around this is you're like, it's anti design. It's bad design on purpose. I think is it kitsch or camp or something? Yeah, it's something like that. So this year's theme is camp. Does that mean we have to wear something? Or how do, how do we all participate in this other than somebody roasting s'mores or whatever? Anna Dower: Well, when we get closest to summer day, there will be a digital [00:38:00] survival guide that our attendees will be able to download. And in the survival guide is, uh, Lots of fun stuff, like there's a packing list, there's a camp map, there's a bunch of quizzes, there's just like a whole heap of fun stuff to get into the theme. And throughout the summer there's a whole section about like, send us your designer confessions and we'll talk about it around the campfire, like all of these really fun things that we'll do. There's a scavenger hunt, there's just like, we're trying to make it really interactive and fun. Chris Do: Will there be ghost stories? Anna Dower: Client horror stories. Chris Do: Yeah. Clients who have ghosted on you. Yeah. Yes. Anna Dower: We have some. They're, they're pretty funny. Yeah. That's always a good time. People love those. Chris Do: Does that mean I need to create a virtual background and be in the woods or something? Oh, you can. I like that idea of having themes and ways to encourage [00:39:00] attendees to participate, even though it's virtual. So you're trying to make it as real as possible. My challenge to you is this. Is that these ideas sound really cool, I want to experience it in person. That'll probably wreck your business, so don't listen to me. You're like, well, we had a good thing, and then we went on this stupid podcast, and we made it real, and now we're both in the poorhouse. And the cup doubles as something you can use on Skid Row. You can just knock it against the bars. Or, you know, donations, you know, something like that. Don't listen to me, but I think it'd be really cool. If we all showed up on one of the many days wearing a specific thing for only the people who want to participate. Now, I'll tell you something. Years ago, I was very intentional in crafting the culture of our service design company called Blind. And we would have weird themes to do all kinds of stupid stuff. And we would have like pajama day and everybody show up in their pajamas. And then there was some kind of [00:40:00] weird twin dress up day. And so you had to find somebody in the company to dress alike so that you can come to the office and be the same. Well, we had one person who was kind of a curmudgeon, one of my older creative directors, and he's like, I'm not playing your stupid game. And so you know what? Five of my interns and a couple of. members dressed just like him. So he had to participate. So instead of having one twin, he had like five or six other twins. And like, it's like, I don't understand you guys. Oh, it's only mature, but it's that kind of stuff that make you smile. And I might forget about the projects and some of the deadlines, but I won't forget some of those moments. And I think the human experience craves things like this that stick to us. Anna Dower: Yeah. Chris Do: So when can we commit to an in person event, ladies? Anna Dower: When are you coming to Australia? Let's lock you in. Chris Do: Okay. Let's do it. You, you put it on and I will show up. Emma Kate: Okay. [00:41:00] Awesome. Chris Do: I'm just looking for an excuse to dress funny. Okay. So there you got it out of me, James Bernard. Let's see what you come up with. Anna Dower: Yeah, I honestly feel like Emma and I are quite introverted and in person kind of freaks us out a bit, but we've been asked many times. Emma Kate: It would be awesome to do. Obviously, you're not going to get 12, 000 people though. You're going to get a lot fewer people, but we could still obviously broadcast it around the world on that kind of thing, which would be awesome. Chris Do: Could you imagine the amount of FOMO? Anna Dower: Yeah, the FOMO would be real. Hey, Chris Do: you have a fireplace on the stage. Okay. Fire Marshall's there, but cool, whatever. And you set up a tent and fake trees and we sit around the thing and somebody is playing a ukulele and it's pretty cool. How cool would that be? Now, I'm gonna offer this up. Because I challenge you, I'm gonna dangle a carrot there. If you ladies put on an in person event I will be there, and [00:42:00] as an introvert, as a fellow introvert card carrying member, I will teach you the dark arts of how to be social. Okay, Anna Dower: it's a Chris Do: deal. Awesome. I've bluffed my way through this game, so I think I know how to fake it now. Awesome. Yeah, it's Anna Dower: a deal. Chris Do: All right, before we get out of here, I have another question to ask of you. You've been doing this eight times. I think the last time you did it, you came up with the theme and it was a lot of fun. And so you want to continue that spirit. I want to ask you, the people who attend Paid or Not Paid, what have been some of the most tearful, heartfelt stories, testimonies you've gotten from people who've participated either as a speaker or as an attendee? Why don't we throw this over to Emma first? Emma Kate: Yeah. So a couple that's come to mind, like one is designers who are a bit more seasoned, like been in it for quite a few years to just be like. I so wish I had have had this when I first started out, like all this gold that I'm getting all [00:43:00] these awesome talks, all the great stuff that's in the bundle, the mini courses, the workshops, the templates, all that stuff that it really just, it's really inspiring to hear that from other people. Cause I, I know I would have loved to have this starting out as well. I still learn stuff every time as well. But then there's also people who are just starting out and also who we do get people from, you know, the Middle East and Africa and poor Asian countries and stuff where they just can't afford 2, 000 course or, you know, 1, 000, they just can't afford that stuff. So to be able to. Give them so much value for free or for the cheaper price if they do decide to upgrade. There's a lot of testimonials and stuff that we have like screenshotted on the website and everything of just people going like, it's like a Christmas. It's like Christmas morning, opening this bundle and seeing all the amazing stuff inside and how it really helps transform. They're business and get them excited about it [00:44:00] again. I think that's a big part as well as we can get kind of in our little bubble and a little bit of a rut and to get excited and pumped for business again and inspired to charge more and do better. And that kind of thing is really awesome. Chris Do: You know, what about you? Anna Dower: I love seeing our audience take real action. Last time we had James Martin as a speaker. He had a really fun presentation. Just seeing designers in the audience then creating reels based on his presentation was pretty amazing. To the point where he inspired action in people, which I think is pretty amazing. Also, There's group chats from the summit that are still going from, you know, the group chats started in February and people are still jumping in there asking questions and talking to each other and supporting each other. That's pretty awesome. And with our summit in [00:45:00] February, we also had a section. Do you want a pen pal? And. We thought no one's going to sign up for this because we, we didn't think about it logistically, like how are we going to match people? We just thought, you know, maybe five people will sign up. And like 500 people signed up for a pen pal, like people love the community. And I think that's the best part for me. And just seeing people take inspired action is pretty awesome too. Chris Do: I have one more question for you, and I'm going to put you both on the spot, okay? We're going to go Anna first, and then we're back over to Emma. I want you to think for a minute, and then I don't want you to overthink it, because as soon as I finish the question, you have to answer it, okay? But we're going to go Anna first, then Emma. I want you to reflect back on the previous eight times you've done this. I want you to think about the one person who just knocked out of the park. Who are they, and what did they do in 30 seconds or less? Anna Dower: I would say Liz Mosley. She was real. She was authentic, 100 percent [00:46:00] herself. People resonated with it. When you're real, people resonate. And she was kind of like, I don't want to say underdog, but she wasn't one of our big speakers and people really loved her. And I did too. I love her. And I think Liz gets all the points for showing up and being real. Chris Do: Yeah. Well, that ties into this thing that you said about being yourself. So you're consistent with that. Very nice. All right. Over to you, Emma. Emma Kate: Well, initially I was going to say James Barnard, but we've spoken about him too much this time. So the next one that came to mind was Nikki Hamilton last time talking about AI and how she created her own custom GPT to create, Strategies for clients and copywriting for the entire website. And we were just all like, like, it was insane. Like, I just went right ahead and bought them. I was like, yes, I need these. Like it was just. [00:47:00] Incredible what she'd done. And I think it really opened so many people's minds to how we can use AI to like, just cut hours and hours, days of work from our business. And yeah, since then inspired me to start creating my own custom GPTs just for myself, just to like make things easier. And yeah, so. Stuff like that, where you just like people that are really jumping on AI or something that's really innovative and just blowing your mind, showing a demo of how they can do stuff. That's really awesome. So shout out to Nikki. Chris Do: Good job. Good job, ladies. I think you could not have answered that better than I would hope for, because to kind of book in our conversation today, In the green room, we were talking about the different roles that you play. And Anna, you talk about, I'm more of the creative person, the marketing. And then you really kind of talk about how when people show up, that really resonates with you. And then how Emma was like really good with tech and doing the web stuff. And she's like, you know what? The best thing is AI, AI [00:48:00] forever, everybody. It's like, it's so perfect. We see what we see, right? It couldn't be more different. But such a reflection on your personalities, consciously or unconsciously. There we are. I'm sorry, I probably insulted both of you in that process, but Emma Kate: no, cause I remember when Nikki's presentation happened and it's like, yeah, I don't get it. Chris Do: Okay. Let's do this. Okay, I'm listening to this and this broadcast goes out to a lot of people, people from all over the world, people that are part of the demographic, the larger community. What do they need to do? Where do they go? Tell the good people how to take action now. Emma Kate: So they need to go to designerboss. co. co and that's where you can get your free ticket to join the summit and yeah, get your free ticket, you'll get the calendar invite, everything like that. You'll get all the goss on the summit and obviously you'll get given an offer to upgrade to the bundle if you so [00:49:00] choose. And obviously in that bundle, you get all the goodies from the speakers, but also you get to see the amazing Christo's live workshop as well as Paula Scherr's live workshop and the live panel from Christy Campbell and James Barnard as well. Chris Do: Anna, did you want to say something? Anna Dower: No, that's it. And get the boss bundle. It is no money for so much stuff. There's over 3, 000 worth of resources and you get to see Chris Doe live. You get to see Paula Sher live. Please buy the boss bundle. Chris Do: What a bargain, everybody. I mean, come on, 50 bucks. I feel like cheap now all of a sudden. Come on. This is ridiculous. Or, hey, you don't have to buy it, you can just book me for a one on one consultation. It's 5, 000 U. S., so you guys choose, 50 bucks, 5, 000, all the same to me. Choose whatever makes sense. All right, ladies, it was fantastic talking to you. I had a great time, I hope you did too. And I want to just send my [00:50:00] warm wishes to you and every person who's involved in helping you make this real. I want to encourage you to keep doing this and I can't wait to do a themed event with you at some point in the future. Emma Kate: Yay. Awesome. Thanks, Chris. Thanks so much for having us. I'm Anna Dower. And I'm Emma Kate. You are listening to The Future. The Futur: Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get new insightful episodes from us every week. The Future Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced and edited by Rich Cardona Media. Thank you to Adam Sanborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, So then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, [00:51:00] visit the future. com and you'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and the creative business. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.